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Post by Jean DeVenn on Oct 31, 2009 8:58:15 GMT -8
It's about common courtesy, not age or rules of etiquette. I have seen occasional younger vampires show courtesy, and I respect them for it.
The difference is that nowadays, there seem to be days and days of obscenities and insults often leading to nothing more. I have seen that in most cases, the older vampires don't need to work themselves up into a frenzy first. They speak calmly, and then decide if something is worth fighting for. If it is, they step seamlessly from polite conversation to bloodshed on the streets without breaking step. There is, to my mind, no need for abuse, and it only serves to make the target aware that they are about to be visited.
But the city has changed, and it seems bad manners are de rigeur now. A shame.
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Idony
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Post by Idony on Oct 31, 2009 9:55:56 GMT -8
As for Victorian era Idony, well it was not exactly that, as one having been born in that period I assure you of this. But it was still or at least seemed to me, to hold more of those who sought to out wit verbally as well as physically. Instead of those such as petit, who curse and think that they are just being blunt-er then the rest of us who as Jean said, veil our words. But your quite right that tone is also important, and I forgot to add that part in, so thank you for speaking up. You lived in the 19th century? That's interesting; what country are you from? In any case, this analogy with the Victorian era has taken an interesting turn. I'm curious if you were as polite to those from a lower social class than yourself, as you were to your peers? I realise I'm taking great liberties in presuming to know your social standing at the time, but you don't quite sound cockney to me. The question would stand on hypothetical grounds regardless. To flesh it out a little: of course you were polite with, say, servants, and unabusive in language. But were they to get above themselves in conduct, wouldn't you chastise them and adopt a less tolerant tone? If your valet served you dressed like a gentleman, wouldn't you have been outraged and had him change his clothes at once? Such an instance could overall hardly be construed as politeness, no? And of course, with the disappearance of stark differences between social classes (in England, as around the world I guess; RavenBlack included) there are more choices available. You can be equally polite to everyone, or equally rude, or differentiate based on replacements of social class: bloodline, age, wit, etc. I've seen a good few smooth talkers that tried to sound ever polite, like you nostalgically long for, but they were tripping in their own words due to incompetence, and I had no intention to treat them with the same courtesy solely on account of their ambitions. I can suffer a pretentious wit, but I can't suffer a pretentious twit.
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Damia
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Post by Damia on Oct 31, 2009 13:18:46 GMT -8
My kind? See I speak of politeness, not social ranks in this city filled with many. Though I am sure there are those who look down on all and pretend that they are above due to having a knowledgeable tongue. But that is not myself. I could in reality not care if you were born in dirt or silk. For I tend to give everyone a chance. Politeness, knows no class lines. For any one can be polite. Now yes money perhaps can help with this, for if as a young human your family has money, such types of families in my experience expect their young to set an example. But as an immortal, we all fall on an equal scale. Though I must admit some in the city do not register. Even yourself sir, though it seems you think less of yourself then perhaps what you are. Though tis true your perhaps a example of not the most polite, but in fact I have heard good things said of your judgment and more. And I understand as I was telling a friend yesterday, that some times no amount of words will fix some. But I do believe it doesn't hurt to try. Holy waters are easy to come by, and easier to toss. But trying to explain to another how they have crossed a boundary without resorting to violent language it seems is now hard for many in this city to do.
*A fond smile crossed her face as this was the first time in a while she had been asked this. Even as her time as a human held bad memories, her human family had been delightful in their own ways.*
I was born in England, country gentry in fact is what I think it is deemed as now. And you are very perceptive my dear. I was in fact one of those higher though at the time I never regarded it that way, social classes. And I believe I was polite to many, though it has been years since I have thought of that time. But I know on a instinctive level, I perhaps was more haughty as a human then I am now. Immortality being a beautiful leveler on any playing field.
Well my dear I was a lady so a valet would have been out of the question. *wink* Not quite proper for a gentleman to dress a lady. Though I'm sure some ladies of my former acquaintance would enjoy that. And such action would not have been polite in this age, but back in that lifetime, it would have been rude to ignore it. For to ignore such an insult give to one of upper standing, indeed many of my class were taught that you must keep one in their place at all times. For if they strayed, would they not get silly ideas of being equal. Couldn't let that happen. But you see I was lady in that time period, so my rights were less then that of even a servant. Oh of course I could use my social standing, and perhaps I did once or twice, but in reality, my life was dictated to me by first my parents and then my husband. Which is hardly considered polite now days either.
But I stray off your original question forgive me. In all ways you are right, bringing up the good point that we all must go further and the definition of polite changes as time itself. But to me, some bits of politeness are essential. Perhaps more so given because I was brought up in a class where to be rude and crass was to be vulgar. Though I try not to force that that attitude on others. At the same time, I can not but help to miss the word play that can accompany two skilled opponents. For it is as I said so easy to say "Fuck you" and toss a holy water. Or even as I experienced the other eve for a male to walk up and ask that you go to bed with him before you even have introduced yourselves.
Quite right. Simply depends I suppose on how one wants to take the definition of politeness, versus all those factors. Not to mention I know that even as I yearn for politeness based on the age I was raised in as a human, or even the younger age of immortality in this city, there are some who are coming from the more modern age and viewing such things as trivialities.
*A chuckle came out as she read this witty observation.* I have met a few of those myself. Though perhaps they were simply trying to be polite and perhaps coming off wrong. But I know there are those who try to do the social type of politeness which is to be haughty, look down on others and try to pretend something about them makes them better. Which is not to me true polite speaking but simply assumptions or aspirations of greatness that don't belong.
As I said, anyone can be polite. Yes it is not easy by any means to do the skilled verbal wordplay I miss, but that is not say it can not be learned.
And thank you to all who provided such interesting discussion thus far. It does make me think in depth on this subject and perhaps my observations will change or stay the same. I do try to learn still from others words.
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Post by black_dragonet on Oct 31, 2009 13:37:15 GMT -8
Well... sending a valet to serve a victorian Lady, that would have been a subtle insult... Having him dressed as a gentleman would ruin the insult. Besides, the rest of the household would never allow a gentleman to see the mistress before she was duly prepared and ready to be seen...
I find country gentry to provide the best of educations, teaching responsibility, as opposed to court gentry that to my eye taught more the less palatable qualities of sycophancy and sweet-talking their way to sinecures... Might be a bit of prejudice there, but that's the way I remember things were back then when I was a human. After all, I was killed for slighting one of these "noble" sons after he had insulted me.
Former sire of mine, there is truth in what you say, but still you fail to see that common courtesy costs nothing, it is some sort of art de vivre that eases the life of the people you talk to, as well as yours. That is, if you decide to separate from your anger at the whole world, save those that caught your eye.
When you want, and with people you like, I know you can be civil. Just extend that courtesy to all those who have not yet proven to be "obstinate donkeys", and you shall see how easier your life shall become.
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Idony
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Post by Idony on Oct 31, 2009 13:44:46 GMT -8
Never said he'd attend to her dressing Did I? ...That would be a neat Freudian slip. But say then that it was a gentleman's gentleman, or a lady's lady... Tsk, nit picking.
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Damia
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Post by Damia on Oct 31, 2009 14:05:05 GMT -8
*Chuckles* Forgive us. I think both Dragonet and I are taking the term a bit to literally. For a technical valet was the counterpart of a ladies maid.
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Idony
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Post by Idony on Oct 31, 2009 14:11:56 GMT -8
Yes, I know In recent years though, dressing has become easier and there are more butlers than valets... I've never met a valet. But a butler serves gents and ladies equally.
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Post by black_dragonet on Oct 31, 2009 14:30:56 GMT -8
Yes, but when having to find servants, I found it more convenient to recruit both a maid and a butler. I happened to find a couple who were just that, and hired them.
I respect them, and they in turn respect me. They stay because they just love the place, and love me. They welcome visitors wishing to see my place, but I find it particularely disgusting when guests bite them and overstay their welcome. I thus have left them a small supply of scrolls of displacement to remove the rude people from my estate.
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Post by Jean DeVenn on Nov 1, 2009 3:06:28 GMT -8
It's interesting that this talk turns to one of social backgrounds. I think that background is important, but that people from all backgrounds can be polite.
For myself, I never had a valet or servant. Growing up as a human my family were, you might say, country gentlefolk. But not affluent enough for servants. Then, as a teenager, the world exploded in fire and blood. The great Revolution saw the end (for a while) of servitude. All men were equal - liberte, egalite et fraternite. By the time I was turned, our Grande Armee had freed much of Europe from medieval superstition and feudalism. True, by then I had a servant of sorts. I had a batman, for as an officer I had too much to do looking after my company to polish my own boots. But he was a friend and long-time companion, and we spoke as brothers in arms, not master and servant. He fell at Borodino, among so many others of the 30eme.
So I firmly believe that courtesy is either in one's individual nature, or not. But impatience and haste are it's enemies. Too many of the new vampires have that 20th Century disease of impatience, and it seems to be dangerously infectious.
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Post by black_dragonet on Nov 1, 2009 4:03:44 GMT -8
*nods* What I find interesting is that we three share the same upbringing, that of country lesser nobility, the kind that gave little rights, but many duties. You were probably born 70 or 80 years after me. Damia, somewhat later. Still, we share many values, one of which being that servants are not slaves.
My parents had a few servants, quite the same as many rich people like today are doing. The difference is that there should and always have been the utmost respect for the servants. Mine remain because they like me and respect me. Of course I pay them, but they remain free to leave. They know they most likely would not find such respect and such living conditions as I allow them. Servants should not have accomodations of a lesser quality than guests or employers. My relation to my servants probably is the same as the one you had with your batman.
The great Revolution was a nightmare for most people. Liberté égalité fraternité ? certainly not! It was a switch from one oppression to another even more ruthless than the one that was existing before. Luckily, Napoleon put a stop to it, but the madness lasted almost ten years. I saw things I thought I would never see. It is during that time that genocide was invented.
I think it's both individual and cultural. Many people would be more polite if they had been taught to be, and how important it was. Then it's in some people's nature to be, or to just not be. Beyond that, I think it goes along with a sense of duty that's not really the norm anymore. Nowadays people know all their rights, what they are entitled to, but much less people know what their duties are. They want to receive, not to give.
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seyda
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Post by seyda on Nov 1, 2009 5:52:37 GMT -8
I think the part that's missing in this discussion is respect. The indication I'm getting (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that courtesy and politeness will automatically equal respect. That just isn't true. People can walk up to your face, call you sir or madam, kiss your hand and bow, but be one week away from tossing your body on a pike. Thus it is a shallow tool used to further their own end, not a show of respect.
Personally, I'm more of a 'say what you mean and mean what you say' type of vampiress. Jean, I'll use you as an example since we do have a bit of history from the old Unholy. If today I had business with him that needed to be attended to, what would you guys respect more? My walking up to Jean, calling him Sir DeVenn, nodding and thanking him and generally blowing a bunch of smoke up his ass to try and get the business attended to, even though I have a past issue with him? Or if I just walked up to him and said, "Jean, I still think you're an asshole, but we have a situation that I think we need each other for?"
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Idony
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Post by Idony on Nov 1, 2009 6:16:29 GMT -8
Politeness almost always includes some degree of hypocrisy. That's the point, I think: sacrificing sincerity for the sake of something being easy on the ears. I thought about making those points as well but reading the first post again, I didn't get the feeling that the discussion sprung from a want to see more respect; more like from a nostalgia for aestheticism. But of course, I could be off.
The part I underlined should be particularly emphasized, and now that you've mentioned it I'm beginning to think that a lot of people indeed confuse the two. This confusion could be one of the reasons why there's been an overload of 'rude sincerity' lately; people take politeness and dishonesty/disrespect as black and white, not as compatible forms of address.
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 1, 2009 6:37:42 GMT -8
I don't think politeness equates getting respect at all.
I also don't feel that sincerity is sacrificed for the sake of politeness. At least for me, when I choose to speak with politeness and such, I know that I am quite sincere, be it a compliment an insult or anything in between. Though this may not be the case for everyone *shrugs*
~HiS~
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Post by black_dragonet on Nov 1, 2009 6:59:38 GMT -8
There’s the same steel in any knife, whether the guard is bone, iron or silk. Mine’s not in silk, that’s all. I disagree with the rest of the statement, but I liked that example... I find that a knife with a silk handle kills the same as one with an iron or bone one. Only, it does so with much more elegance and comfort. I prefer to do so with comfort and elegance. I certainly shall not trade any sincerity or truth for the sake of politeness, nor do I feel that politeness equals respect. Being polite is giving others a courtesy, whether you respect them or not is another point entirely. When and if I am killed, I shall appreciate that the killer use a beautiful knife, one with a silken handle, rather than a crude one.
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Promethius
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Post by Promethius on Nov 1, 2009 9:10:50 GMT -8
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