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Post by Luce Scura on Jul 2, 2009 13:23:31 GMT -8
Actually Bug, I think perhaps you have hit that nail (which is my bone of contention on this topic) right on the head. I too fall into the "human stock" category having only left my humanity behind less than 3 years ago.... BUT .. to make those whom our sire makes his childer as my siblings is too humanistic for me. I consider my sire's other "children" as part of a sisterhood or brotherhood with me, but just in the sense of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" sort of way. I do not consider my turning by whitelightfell as entering something defined as a parent/child relationship ... those are human words which do not adequately describe a turning, in my opinion. I am not the true "child" of my sire in that human sense any more than a dog or cat is the "child" of it's owner no matter how many times the owner may coo about "Mummy's precious baby". If I am not a true "child" of my sire than those who were also sired by my sire are not truly my "sisters" or "brothers" restricted by human words or a human code of conduct. Do my sire and his bride make sure I am nurtured in training and educated to be wise, wealthy, protected, and powerful? Absolutely. Do my sire and his bride make sure I am instilled with what is the code of honor, respect, sense of duty, loyalty, and responsibility he expects of his bloodline? Without question. Does the training, nurturing, duty, and loyalty inspire a bond with those in my bloodline? You betcha....... but that still does not make us siblings in a truly human sense. And I am no longer human. *edited to fix lousy grammar
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Post by Bug Merovingian on Jul 2, 2009 13:59:39 GMT -8
Perhaps that is where our differences in opinion stem from then. I still count myself at least partially human. I am human in form, and emotions, as well as my thought processes. Quite obviously my... diet has drastically changed. I too have not been turned as long as many here have been. I have been here less than three years, and in the amount of time I have been forced to make many difficult adjustments. Just as all have. Perhaps at some point in the distant future my views may change, but at this point in time I don't see it. When I take a family view, I take the whole view. I do not require my childer to call me by any paternal designations. Should they choose to do so, then they will abide by the same rule I hold for myself. I do understand your points, Rel and Luce. I agree, from your standpoint they are valid and hold true for you. But for others, myself included, this doesn't work. My sire, is now my mother. True, she did not give birth to me in the traditional sense. But, by siring under her I have been given birth in the metaphorical sense. In some respects I am made anew through the adoption into the family. While I hold this to be true, I can not deny the influences my previous sires have had on me. *A sudden thought enters his mind* Umm, are we allowed to disagree without the typical name calling?
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Post by Katastrophe St. John-Talon on Jul 2, 2009 14:00:26 GMT -8
Actually Bug, I think perhaps you have hit that nail (which is my bone of contention on this topic) right on the head. I too fall into the "human stock" category having only left my humanity behind less than 3 years ago.... BUT .. to make those whom our sire makes his childer as my siblings is too humanistic for me. I consider my sire's other "children" as part of a sisterhood or brotherhood with me, but just in the sense of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" sort of way. I do not consider my turning by whitelightfell as entering something defined as a parent/child relationship ... those are human words which do not adequately describe a turning, in my opinion. I am not the true "child" of my sire in that human sense any more than a dog or cat is the "child" of it's owner no matter how many times the owner may coo about "Mummy's precious baby". If I am not a true "child" of my sire than those who were also sired by my sire are not truly my "sisters" or "brothers" restricted by human words or a human code of conduct. Do my sire and his bride make sure I am nurtured in training and educated to be wise, wealthy, protected, and powerful? Absolutely. Do my sire and his bride make sure I am instilled with what is the code of honor, respect, sense of duty, loyalty, and responsibility he expects of his bloodline? Without question. Does the training, nurturing, duty, and loyalty inspire a bond with those in my bloodline? You betcha....... but that still does not make us siblings in a truly human sense. And I am no longer human. *edited to fix lousy grammar Agreed. I've been a vampire for less than two years. I may still hold certain human values at my core, but my "siblings" through Seyda--while I might call them "brother" or "sister"--are simply not that. For me, it's a playful way that we refer to each other. That being said... I just can't call Seyda "Mom". Modified to quote what I was agreeing with because Bug snuck in before me.
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Post by Luce Scura on Jul 2, 2009 14:43:57 GMT -8
Oh I certainly hope so ... since I not only respect your right to disagree, I respect your well stated opinion, even though it is not the same as mine.
I'm rather fond of a good debate.
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Post by Nightwalker on Jul 2, 2009 14:58:30 GMT -8
I like the one who opened this thread am not trying to bash anyone just stating what I percieve take it as you will, I will address the opener rel since she started this article. Now... My line is one that many have an issue with we do use the familial terms of aunty/uncle, grandpa/grandma, etc. Do we play house? No by definition those terms represent their position in approximation to each other. Humans look at that as blood relation. But we aren't human. Those are simply words and terms that are used to define our place in approximation to each other not as a human but as vampires which is what we are. Is my family close as those as a humans that use that term fondly? Yes. We feel like the representation of those words accurately describes our postion and the level of care for one another is much the same. For simplicities sake I have put *** to shorten the quote I will start with the begining few sentences and then the ending few sentences so that I'm not taking up as much space with the information that I'm addressing when it can be reread by going to the original article. You turn, or are turned. That is your sire. Or you start this city out as a master either you were a vampire before you came here or you were "born" a vampire. Since there is no true defination of what we are exactly so many types and varieties that we can't truly asscertain the exact cause of the metamorphisis that is vampirism. …and then one leaves the brood and gets themselves severed and finds another sire…or becomes a master vampire themselves. It doesn’t erase who turned them, it’s just a piece of paper and lil bit of blood. For the most part this is my biggest issue with your statement in whole. We have a power Second Sight. If the severance was just paper I think those without this power would be able to go to the hall and check to see who is of what line. It's a power not beauracracy 101. Since when I look I'm not looking at a sheet of paper. I see thier line. The effect of severing is mystical in nature. Since if it was simply paper we would all have to run back to the beuracracy and get our documents updated. Well it could be mystically changed paper I guess but in either case the effect is still mystical. The severence and bindings are of a mystical nature. We cannot cheapen it with human ideaology of claiming it plain paperwork. So your siblings aren’t now…but are…they will always be considered a part of you, your blood, your power as a vampyre regardless of where you go. They may be your enemy, your friend, your lover, your partner, your confidant, your crush, your lust. They may be in your clan or not. You may be clanned or consider your bloodline the only coven you need. With the statement I made just above. This would negate this effect from a pure bloodline approach. They are no longer your "family" because of the mystical nature of the family. No one knows what exactly a severence and binding entails but what is positive is it does break the bonds of blood. Whether vampires who are severed see whole, part or none of their previous family in a familial way is a matter of choice. That's a psychological issue not a physical one. But, although familial terms are cute, they’re not accurate. You’re not their aunt, they’re not a niece…my husband’s childer are not my own. I am not their sire. *** It conflicts sometimes for all clan leaders and sires respectively, but any sire worth their grain of salt knows that if one decides to dedicate themselves to a clan, it usually goes without saying that it takes precedent. Sire is defined by many things it's most general use is one's creator. or parent. AKA Fathers or Mothers. Actually now we get down to symantics a Sire takes on two chylder. They are defined as siblings be it brothers or sisters. Aunt and Uncle by definition is your Parent(Sire) Siblings. So the familial terms are accurate to the point of being exact. The issue your talking about isn't the verbage it's the context and actions of how people use it. Those that make baby faces at thier sires and act like human children seems to be your issue not the termanology. We are immortal and families and clans are important but to place one as more valuable than the other seems a bit ridiculous to me since we have the capacity to sever familial ties that if your clan is more important then sever from your family and bind yourself to your clanmates or turn your entire family into a clan. That would make more sense would it not? We all have brothers in arms, blood sisters, those we consider family we would die for. They may or may not be bloodline, but they're not any less important. I have them. *** There are the familial pet names which I too have used. "Oh my brutha..." was a fav of mine for a long time. I'm not mocking that, nor am I discounting it... Yet, we all know (or anyone who’s cared enough to read or hear anything I’ve said over the past five years) that I don’t believe in severing. I think that if you have a crap ass childe, then you have a crap ass childe. *** Yet, I’m starting to see…since this trend is no longer a trend and now is a full fledged part of our society…that because of the moving from sire to sire, it’s even LESS familial and even more political. Why not be rid of them whether you sever your childer or your sire is entirely up to you. Being immortal why would you place yourself in such a postion as to be immortally bound to people you dislike when the option exists to be rid of them. That to me smacks in the face of vampires sense of pride in thier independence. We claim humans to be less and now we are going to subjugate ourselves because of some social rule about family you were brought into is the only family you should keep yourself bond to. Humans subjegate themselves to human concepts such as those, why should we? As for the issues of it being more political than familial I see that as like minds and types think alike so those who move for politcal reasons tend to move to those who have political influence that desire to be apart of it makes that family more family to them than the family they were previously in. Even in human society there are those who abandon their families for political gain I don't see the difference of familial relations of vampires being much deeper since humans tend to be the base creature. Are all bindings political? Of course not. *** I find the reasoning so pedantically human that it’s making me sad for our kind. So, although I think the severing is nonsense, I also accept I’m in the minority. *** I get it. I do! It’s between you and your sire. It’s important and for that it should be honored. You've hit the nail on the head with this one. The concepts that vampires tend to hold to is thier own experiences and since most of the vampires of the city come from human stock. It's completely understandable that they act and react in a humanish fashion on thier basic sets of beliefs. Despite vampires claim of superiority they seem to have some very humanish characteristics especially when it comes to things of a social nature. BUT THE DRIVEL! Incest? Really? *** It’s nonsense, but the fact that some actually believe that is beyond comprehension. By definition it is incestial. The problem is as you mentioned earlier not the words but the connotation. Those who think like humans will react like humans and thus the incestual idealogy is that of modern society and it makes it taboo(modern being in the last 1000 years common practice before that incest was bad was only primarily in europe and only those of the judaic/christian beliefs) Brothers, sisters, in laws, gah… These are your siblings, your brood, your blood, your coven, your power, your drive, that are connected to you in a way that a clan will never be YET can be on the opposite end of a battle field at any time. *** Vying for the attention of their sire, not agreeing on things, being in different clans…yet STAYING where they are. Owning their blood, their line, their history…it’s amazing to see. I’m just wondering others thoughts on the matter….no specifics please – this isn’t a bashing session against one or another vampire, but more about the subjects in a larger scale… I think it still persist even in my own line but I do believe your correct that it's turned into something less. those that are clanned understand that in my family we do not hold grudges over clan wars. Clans fight it's a given if you choose to join a clan and a family member is in a opposing clan and you fight guess what? You can't expect the family to back one side or the other. You choose to join a clan. It isn't a hard concept to understand you have the freedom to choose. Don't whine to other's because a family member is in another clan when you got attacked. I think that the biggest problem and issues and I believe I stated this somewhere before comes from the descrepency in social idealogy. Since we are an immortal race the time period of most vampires social upbringing can be greatly divergent. So the cohisiveness of idealogy of what social rules we are to use is lost since social rules come from what the majority decide is right. Since there seems to be no power in this city that can not go unopposed to enforce order and set the rules. Thier will continue to be divergent idealogies. And even if there was someone or group that was they would still continuously be opposed by either the deafeted or the fresh blood that comes in. In the end the best social ideaology is my own. What's mine is mine what's yours is yours don't mess with mine and I won't screw yours up. Everything else is just fluff from that point onwards. again this isn't an attack just statements to perhaps give a different perception on the issues being presented. Written by the Ghoul WVHelsing on behalf of Nightwalker
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Idony
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Post by Idony on Jul 2, 2009 15:25:15 GMT -8
I've called all my sires by mock-parental terms; pappy, mumsy and padre respectively. But that's obviously inaccurate, as is the use of the term incest, amusing as they may be. Incest is a social taboo because having children with close siblings or even second cousins for several generations causes genetic malfunctions on account of a reduced gene pool. Sires and their childer may share blood, but they certainly don't share genetic details, so they can't be related, nor can the issue of actual incest be competently brought to question.
Many vampires seem to use the term of "brother" and "sister" because they can't think of anything else to use, even if they may know those terms are inadequate. I prefer to use the word "sibling", and even then I'm in doubt.
As for sirings and bindings to be conducted as political means, I personally see nothing wrong with that. Call me insensitive, but profit of whatever sort should come before sentimentality that really can't advantage undead creatures.
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rel
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byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
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Post by rel on Jul 2, 2009 15:48:05 GMT -8
I love me a good debate, and can't wait to sit here and dig in *grins* Don't want anyone to think I'm ignoring, so I'll return to do so as soon as I can.
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Post by Luce Scura on Jul 2, 2009 15:56:36 GMT -8
Well spoken and interesting points of view ... thanks for the opportunity to "hear" them.
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Post by black_dragonet on Jul 3, 2009 1:35:51 GMT -8
Interesting debate that reminds me of the "slut" one... I was sired 3 centuries ago, so all my sisters and brothers are now gone. The chance for one of my family to have been turned into a vampire and I to be romantically interested in her are theorical, all the more since I am already bound, and clearly not likely to love anyone other than my Lady Ophy.
Many of us use references to human family relations out of practicity, and also for the fun. The bare thought of someone calling Damari or Seyda "Mommy" is enough to make me chuckle. Knowing how much that would piss off Damari, I don't think I could use any other word were she to be my sire, though. So many of us use those words because though we know they are not appropriate, they are an easy and funny way to describe the link that binds us. "Sibling" would be more appropriate, but does not seem to convey and reflect the closeness that some of us feel, so we started using family related terms such as cousin, brother, sister, and so on. Why not, as long as it is clear those words are used for want of better words to describe the bonds. As long as we don’t take all the human stuff that’s associated with the word. As long as we remain aware that contrary to the humans who need to have both a father and a mother, we only have one sire. Should a severing take place, there’s no such thing as alternate care of the childer… I understand that some feel somehow bound to their sire’s partners, but there is no bond beyond that of friendship once the severance takes place. We might use the human words, but we shouldn’t use the human concepts and limitations that come along with the words. The thing with "Incest" somehow is the same. Romance among siblings could and would be seen by humans as incest, hence as a vampire, it is ironical and somewhat funny to call such a relation with this word. Then what? Nobody really cares about what humans call incest, since I don't think there be vampires who happened to be brother and sister when they were human. Among vampire, there’s no such thing as the negative consequences of interbreeding amongst humans. Why should I care if I were to choose Ophy’s sire as my sire? Now I understand that some feel the bond that siblings share should not be coupled with a bond of another nature. That is respectable. It has nothing to see with the human concept of incest though. More with the fact that those are two bonds of different nature that some people don’t think should coexist.
“family”, “incest”, “marriage”, those are words linked to human concepts, that we vampires have taken to using since they are close to “lineage”, “sibling romance” and “partnering”. They also are more beautiful than the latter. The thing is that these words also come with connotations, link to humane motions and taboos that we vampire shouldn’t even consider.
I think the knot of the issue is the sense we give to the words. Slut, bitch, sex kitten, pleasure slave, lover. Friend, best friend, sibling, brother/sister, family. Add “my before each term of one of the above two lines, and each one of you will see different things. They are related though, and one same person could be associated to each word of the list, depending of the circumstances.
Each one of us has a different history and reacts differently to words. Each one of us is a vampire and should not forget that most of the vocabulary we use is human’s vocabulary. “Killing a human being” doesn’t really sound the same in a human’s mouth and in ours… does it?
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Post by Nightwalker on Jul 3, 2009 1:48:39 GMT -8
Interesting debate that reminds me of the "slut" one... Many of us use references to human family relations out of practicity, and also for the fun. The bare thought of someone calling Damari or Seyda "Mommy" is enough to make me chuckle. Knowing how much that would piss off Damari, I don't think I could use any other word were she to be my sire, though. Just as a side note. I do happen to call Damari, Mumsy. Written by WVHelsing on behalf of Nightwalker
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Damari
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Post by Damari on Jul 3, 2009 2:27:05 GMT -8
I like making incest jokes about Josie and Pulse... so yeah, in that case I'll name names, but it's only because I enjoy teasing them. Hell, they poke fun at it themselves and they both know I love them dearly. That's cause you're a fluff ball with about as much substance as candy floss. You're good for a little nibble, but too much of you and a person gets a belly ache & tooth decay. Knowing how much that would piss off Damari, I don't think I could use any other word were she to be my sire, though. Jesus... Yes, that's exactly what I need in a future childer, ANOTHER pain in the ass... On a more topical note, if you were my childer black-ie - I'd totally do you. Just as a side note. I do happen to call Damari, Mumsy. Written by WVHelsing on behalf of Nightwalker Grief... - it SPEAKS! Where the hell have you been?
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seyda
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Post by seyda on Jul 3, 2009 3:39:09 GMT -8
Actually Bug, I think perhaps you have hit that nail (which is my bone of contention on this topic) right on the head. I too fall into the "human stock" category having only left my humanity behind less than 3 years ago.... BUT .. to make those whom our sire makes his childer as my siblings is too humanistic for me. I consider my sire's other "children" as part of a sisterhood or brotherhood with me, but just in the sense of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" sort of way. I do not consider my turning by whitelightfell as entering something defined as a parent/child relationship ... those are human words which do not adequately describe a turning, in my opinion. I am not the true "child" of my sire in that human sense any more than a dog or cat is the "child" of it's owner no matter how many times the owner may coo about "Mummy's precious baby". If I am not a true "child" of my sire than those who were also sired by my sire are not truly my "sisters" or "brothers" restricted by human words or a human code of conduct. Do my sire and his bride make sure I am nurtured in training and educated to be wise, wealthy, protected, and powerful? Absolutely. Do my sire and his bride make sure I am instilled with what is the code of honor, respect, sense of duty, loyalty, and responsibility he expects of his bloodline? Without question. Does the training, nurturing, duty, and loyalty inspire a bond with those in my bloodline? You betcha....... but that still does not make us siblings in a truly human sense. And I am no longer human. *edited to fix lousy grammar Agreed. I've been a vampire for less than two years. I may still hold certain human values at my core, but my "siblings" through Seyda--while I might call them "brother" or "sister"--are simply not that. For me, it's a playful way that we refer to each other. That being said... I just can't call Seyda "Mom". Modified to quote what I was agreeing with because Bug snuck in before me. Yep, and I think the ones that do don't mean it in a "Mommy" sense and more of an affectionate label because they can sort of thing...
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Post by Katastrophe St. John-Talon on Jul 3, 2009 7:32:06 GMT -8
I like making incest jokes about Josie and Pulse... so yeah, in that case I'll name names, but it's only because I enjoy teasing them. Hell, they poke fun at it themselves and they both know I love them dearly. That's cause you're a fluff ball with about as much substance as candy floss. You're good for a little nibble, but too much of you and a person gets a belly ache & tooth decay. Aww, Damari's still obsessed with me. That's so cute. Every time I turn around, she's talking about me... and here I am, hardly ever giving her any notice. Well, here ya go, Damari, that attention you've been dying to get from me. Agreed. I've been a vampire for less than two years. I may still hold certain human values at my core, but my "siblings" through Seyda--while I might call them "brother" or "sister"--are simply not that. For me, it's a playful way that we refer to each other. That being said... I just can't call Seyda "Mom". Modified to quote what I was agreeing with because Bug snuck in before me. Yep, and I think the ones that do don't mean it in a "Mommy" sense and more of an affectionate label because they can sort of thing... Yeah, I kinda figured as much, but still... it's just not in me to do it.
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Post by Lascivious Talon-St. John on Jul 4, 2009 16:47:26 GMT -8
I do adore my sire, but she is not my mother, nor could I call her that. She is my teacher/mentor and my dearest friend. I simply do not look on her as I would a parent in the human sense of the word.
With regards to siblings, well, that can be a bit murky at times. I once had a male sibling, and over time, we grew close and shared a bond that felt more like a brother/sister bond. You grow to care for someone when you go through hell with them. However, even though we no longer share a blood-tie as siblings, he is still one I call my "brother" and he refers to me as his "sister". He is there for me no matter what and I know that if I've need of someone to have my back in anything, I can call on him, and vice versa. Yes, I know, how "human" that sounds and most likely is, but family isn't always about blood-ties, that is why we have lineage. So yes, I do have a "brother", as well as my current siblings.
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Xaxxa
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Post by Xaxxa on Jul 4, 2009 19:17:36 GMT -8
Firstly just let me say that the cutsie familial titles that get tossed around the city often cause me to gag and wonder exactly how far we can digress as a race before one day the term vampire is used to describe something less than human with the brain capacity of a toddler….But for now that is beside the point.
For centuries the terms family, brother, sister have been used to describe groups of people that share a connection, including but not limited to those that share DNA. So as far as their use within our community I don’t see a problem but to apply the typical connotations as is applicable in a human family seems rather inadequate simply because it just is not the case.
However, in my opinion, being turned does not automatically mean that all remnants of our human pasts are left at the door. Yes our physical being changes and over time the way we think and feel is bound to also change but as vampires we are essentially passionate, hedonistic creatures with nothing but time. We feel, we love, we hate and we mourn but do we let some stupid human semantic stand between us and those we desire? I would hope not or eternity would soon become extremely dull. More often than not bonds that are formed for whatever reason tend to fluctuate and can become redundant over time making it necessary to move on. He who was my sibling today may not be tomorrow so with that in mind why wait until tomorrow?
If those that hold true to the traditional meaning of family insist that a sire/childe or sibling relationship is incestuous then to be completely bound to such ideals would mean that it should also stand in the event of a severance. If a human family member decides to disassociate themselves from their family unit, which they can do by law it does not then make it alright for them to later return and rattle the bones of their totally hot sister, brother or parent person now…does it?
I don’t know…to each their own I suppose but the fact that this discussion even exists may well suggest that the vampire gene is becoming more and more diluted with each new generation …its kinda sad really.
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