rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
|
Post by rel on Jul 4, 2009 21:14:48 GMT -8
I always will hold true to how I was turned, and how I know many were as well...was it parental? Was it familial? In my case...no. Therefore, any familial titles in the truest sense of the word are rendered meaningless in my opinion. As previously stated, there are many who I consider 'blood-sister' or have formed some bond that has taken a more traditional role and they aren't to be discounted. I would think that no one could argue that emotional connection you may find with one that fits outside the parameters of even those within your bloodline. I had those connections while human. One I considered a sister, another a 'little brother', etc. These are bonds formulated regardless of bloodline.
I do, sorry Bug, find it sad that you are of the opinion of having one of your childer sever if they found themselves finding a soul mate with another in your line. Them knowing that upfront from you may seem logical upon turning or siring, but we all know that when desire hits that sentiment seems impractical to our kind. Having a maternal figure who's sired you is great. Having one that wanted to turn you for their amusement is also very much a part of our kind. Having one of us fall for a human and need to have them for eternity is also something that occurs. They have all been turned for different reasons, either by force or by choice.
Therefore, and not just to bug but in general...it seems odd to me that any, regardless of their own turning - would cast aspersions based on judeo-christian mentality. It doesn't make our kind 'leave' our human traits behind. I had a mother. She bore me. She raised me. She was lost to me upon my turning. My sire created me, which is very different entirely. If I desired to create a childe to fulfill some sort of loss at not baring a child while human, then I could very easily turn one - which I would never do...gah a child vampire who ages mentally but never physically? To me seems a cruel fate worse than death. Yet, I could steal a human child and decide to raise it as my own...or adopt one. I wouldn't...but I've known that to happen. If I found a lost 'childe' seeking...something, and it tugged at my undead heart, perhaps a maternal bond would form. *taps chin shrugging*
There is nothing wrong with pet names for those who are siblings or sires. It's really not the point of the discussion, although an interesting add on to the topic. We're immortal, and easily distracted, bored and amused. Calling a three year turned vampire 'old' because they've become a grand-sire is kinda funny. White's childer do it to me all the time. Mommy. Makes me try to cut them. They seem to like seeing me twitch.
|
|
rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
|
Post by rel on Jul 4, 2009 21:56:26 GMT -8
Imma gonna try to do the same You turn, or are turned. That is your sire. For the most part this is my biggest issue with your statement in whole. We have a power Second Sight. If the severance was just paper I think those without this power would be able to go to the hall and check to see who is of what line. It's a power not beauracracy 101. Since when I look I'm not looking at a sheet of paper. I see thier line. The effect of severing is mystical in nature. Since if it was simply paper we would all have to run back to the beuracracy and get our documents updated. Well it could be mystically changed paper I guess but in either case the effect is still mystical. The severence and bindings are of a mystical nature. We cannot cheapen it with human ideaology of claiming it plain paperwork. That may be true within your line, but I stand by that statement. With the trend, which I found became much more apparent once the Hall of Binding/Severance allowed the ability to sever and bind more than one sire over and over again, becoming common place, there are many sirings that come down to a bit of paper....political or otherwise. I hold true to a lot of what you said - that a binding IS a mystical experience, in which your blood and your sires is linked for eternity. Yet if you sever, no amount of sight will allow me to see who your line was, who turned you, who your siblings were, etc. That comes down to me knowing based on your history, if I care to track you personally. That's different. I can create a bond with a 'sister' not of my line and no Hall will tell me she's not bound to me. If I share my blood...if I mix my essence with another...is it any less meaningful? Sire is defined by many things it's most general use is one's creator. or parent. AKA Fathers or Mothers. Actually now we get down to symantics a Sire takes on two chylder. They are defined as siblings be it brothers or sisters. Aunt and Uncle by definition is your Parent(Sire) Siblings. So the familial terms are accurate to the point of being exact. The issue your talking about isn't the verbage it's the context and actions of how people use it. Those that make baby faces at thier sires and act like human children seems to be your issue not the termanology. We are immortal and families and clans are important but to place one as more valuable than the other seems a bit ridiculous to me since we have the capacity to sever familial ties that if your clan is more important then sever from your family and bind yourself to your clanmates or turn your entire family into a clan. That would make more sense would it not? Perhaps? But I find it absolutely thrilling to see bloodlines within different clans. It's even fantastic if they're enemies! Because if, as you say, they ARE within a familial type of bloodline, then wouldn't it also seem odd that a disagreement would cause one to sever? If, as it's been also brought up, there are remnants of human characteristics within your line, then severing is kinda hypocritical would you agree? I know that when I was human I got into fights with my sister constantly! We would put tape down the middle of the room we shared to ward of sides which we could walk! Made things difficult when she had to actually go out the door, but her tough luck! MY SIDE! Yet to sever her? I mean, I may have wanted to divorce my parents when I was an unruly teen, but I thought that only happened in bad Disney movies...
I also want to point out that your feeling about AKA mother isn't entirely true. Perhaps for you it is, but I know that I was turned because I fell in love with a vampire. There's no debate on that, I was never confused about it, and when she stared deep into my eyes I was lost. I was turned because I wanted to be with her for eternity. I would NEVER categorize her as a mother figure and therefore your terminology doesn't apply. Plus, since I fell in love and then bound with another of her childer, white, that would technically mean...under your theory...that his childer are my nieces? Hmmm....see, that doesn't actually work either. HAHAHA no. I'm not an aunt. No.Why not be rid of them whether you sever your childer or your sire is entirely up to you. Being immortal why would you place yourself in such a postion as to be immortally bound to people you dislike when the option exists to be rid of them. That to me smacks in the face of vampires sense of pride in thier independence. We claim humans to be less and now we are going to subjugate ourselves because of some social rule about family you were brought into is the only family you should keep yourself bond to. Humans subjegate themselves to human concepts such as those, why should we? Because I'm not a quitter *grins* I'm sorry if that sounds glib, but in the deep recesses of whatever soul I may have left, I really think it comes down to that. Look, this shiny hall came into town and told me that I could just sever all ties and suddenly I'm now a master vampyre or I've bound with another sire. That's great. That's a lovely ability that our fine city has given our kind. But the only way that I'll become a master vampyre is to actually destroy my sire so that she is nothing but ash. As it is she just wanders around the city and doesn't really bother me so I don't have that itch. That's just my opinion on it, and...as I've said...I DO get why you would. I honor that. I honor that choice, even if it's not mine.
On the flip side, if I sire, that's it. You're sired. In my book it's for eternity. If you want to sever, then it will be on your own terms, but I will never 'set you free'. It's too important to me. That's not to downplay any other situation, because they are all very emotional and personal to those involved, but to me? It's just not who I am.As for the issues of it being more political than familial I see that as like minds and types think alike so those who move for politcal reasons tend to move to those who have political influence that desire to be apart of it makes that family more family to them than the family they were previously in. Even in human society there are those who abandon their families for political gain I don't see the difference of familial relations of vampires being much deeper since humans tend to be the base creature. This is what I call a clan, actually. Like minded vampires who are all striving to achieve the same goal? A bloodline can become clan like...that's very true, but it can also be something else. A coven. A gloriously dramatic combination of creatures created by one powerful vampire. Or a family. I think there's a misconception about my thoughts about that. You, the general you, finding a family is fantastic, if that's what you need. Sure - the cutesy names may make me cringe a bit, but so what. Those who are do-gooders, join clans that are for the light, play house, get pissed when I rob them in their homes also make me cringe. So what? Whatever floats your boat. YET - to forget that we have all been turned in many different fashions breeds judgment. You...the general you...make think I'm passing judgment. I'm not. I find it fascinating because there are those who garnish the Judeo-Christian beliefs, yet are vampire, DO pass judgment. I find that FASCINATING. It's why I'm interested in the debate to begin with. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts, and I look forward to reading more!
|
|
|
Post by Nightwalker on Jul 5, 2009 0:01:05 GMT -8
To Damari. I've been asleep. You didn't tuck me in to bed and tell me a bedtime story or two so I refused to wake up. <EVILGRIN>. However don't think that I have completely forgiven you for that wonderful trap you and my wife set for me. Now for Rel Let's see if I can give you some more sport. Imma gonna try to do the same That may be true within your line, but I stand by that statement. With the trend, which I found became much more apparent once the Hall of Binding/Severance allowed the ability to sever and bind more than one sire over and over again, becoming common place, there are many sirings that come down to a bit of paper....political or otherwise.But it isn't paper perhaps we should go over the definition of sire and what it's function is. Human use that word as difined as 1. A father. 2. The male parent of an animal, especially a domesticated mammal such as a horse. 3. Archaic A male ancestor; a forefather. 4. Archaic A gentleman of rank. 5. Archaic Used as a form of address for a superior, especially a king. Now that is how humans use the word but we aren't humans are we? The closes I use is the last of the word Sire. My surperior in some way, shape or form I submit to that being. As do most if not all. To claim it is still just paper in the wind. Is inaccurate. It is a choice that each vampire makes. You have chosen to stay for your own reasons but to make a claim that it is wrong or that it's mear paper demeans all others for the chocies they make. If we were intended to be drones to our sires the hall would never have come into existance. I hold true to a lot of what you said - that a binding IS a mystical experience, in which your blood and your sires is linked for eternity. Yet if you sever, no amount of sight will allow me to see who your line was, who turned you, who your siblings were, etc. That comes down to me knowing based on your history, if I care to track you personally. That's different. I can create a bond with a 'sister' not of my line and no Hall will tell me she's not bound to me. If I share my blood...if I mix my essence with another...is it any less meaningful? [/color] [/quote] Ah I'm not saying you can't I to hold bonds of family that are not of my current bloodline. My sister setitevampyr is my "older sister". We formed our bonds when we were both childer under Pandrora. I am not negating the context of the first definition of sister one that you share your bond with. I'm stating that those you are bond to blood whether it be through turning or by adopting a creature (human or other) to a sire is also a valid "sister" or "brother" as well. Perhaps? But I find it absolutely thrilling to see bloodlines within different clans. It's even fantastic if they're enemies! Because if, as you say, they ARE within a familial type of bloodline, then wouldn't it also seem odd that a disagreement would cause one to sever? Odd why would it be odd? Choice is the only option in one's existence. If you chose to disassociate with someone then leaving to be away from someone is not odd. That's choice. So your saying the reason why you dislike the ability to sever and bind to someone else, is so that you can see family members fight. How interesting. If, as it's been also brought up, there are remnants of human characteristics within your line, then severing is kinda hypocritical would you agree? Being a family is more than words it's still a choice. As someone else has said they did not give you your genetic life. They altered your existence. Just as the turning took your human parts and made them vampire (if you were human to begin with) and give you a vampiric family. So does the house of binding/severance. Take away one family to give you another. As I stated previously the choice is psychological I was only ever severed from my sires because my sires were leaving this place for good. They did not want us bond to them if they were not going to be here. Do I think less of them for it. No. Did I ask to be severed. No. Am I glad that they did it? That is to complicated to explain in words since they are emotional concepts. Yes and No is the simplest answer. Most of our kind take on sires for the want of belonging to something that they feel some special connection. For good or ill that connection maybe it is a desire to be connected that causes them to take on a sire. I have spent my time as a master vampire far longer than I have spent my time as a childer, However each time I was sought out and desired by my sire because they wanted a connection with me. Although save the first the other two had to trap me but that is a different discussion. I know that when I was human I got into fights with my sister constantly! We would put tape down the middle of the room we shared to ward of sides which we could walk! Made things difficult when she had to actually go out the door, but her tough luck! MY SIDE! Yet to sever her? I mean, I may have wanted to divorce my parents when I was an unruly teen, but I thought that only happened in bad Disney movies... You having no desire to sever your sister does not mean we all had felt that way. I have always denounced and severed my birth father. He caused the death of my mother. I refuse to accept him in any classification. I have childer who feel much the same way about me as their sire. We cannot please everyone as most humans attempt to do. I just try to please myself. Then again that's all I see vampires do as well. That's all they care about is self fulfillment. Perhaps that is the reason why we seem to be degrading as a species as another put it. As much as we claim vampires are superior the ability of humans never seize to amaze me and to put me in awe. Their advancement I've seen in the past 5000 years is nothing to sneaze at. And we cannot forget the hunters that mask as regular humans are not always all that easy to deal with. I've had a few escape from me from time to time. I'm sure other's have as well. I'd address the "Disney Movie" but I'm not sure what that is. I also want to point out that your feeling about AKA mother isn't entirely true. Perhaps for you it is, but I know that I was turned because I fell in love with a vampire. There's no debate on that, I was never confused about it, and when she stared deep into my eyes I was lost. I was turned because I wanted to be with her for eternity. I would NEVER categorize her as a mother figure and therefore your terminology doesn't apply. Plus, since I fell in love and then bound with another of her childer, white, that would technically mean...under your theory...that his childer are my nieces? Hmmm....see, that doesn't actually work either. HAHAHA no. I'm not an aunt. No. Parent, Mother, Father, Sire. All have interchangable meanins and why the word Mother seems to be offensive they all relate to the same core of responsibility. They have or had a charge of teaching you. Some sire's take this responsibility seriously. Others do not. But since the words all get back to the common concepts of family, covens, cults and other forms of structures where you have a head of the group and those beneath him(s)/her(s) that terminolgy springs forth from whatever the majority of our society chooses to deam the term. It could be the Grand Puba for as much as I care about the word. Words are just that words. They change meaning from place and culture. Aunt? Why aren't you? Aunt is just a word to describe a relation. I keep getting the feeling you are trying to hold on to human concepts. Are you your spouses sibling/childer/sire? If so then why aren't you their aunt/mother/sister etc.? Why do you seem to hold yourself against using such words? Does it make you feel ill somewhere in your mind? Again words are words the meanings and connotations of the words change overtime what we call family today maybe called Tomuchtrouble tomorrow. We don't really know. Because I'm not a quitter *grins* I'm sorry if that sounds glib, but in the deep recesses of whatever soul I may have left, I really think it comes down to that. Look, this shiny hall came into town and told me that I could just sever all ties and suddenly I'm now a master vampyre or I've bound with another sire. That's great. That's a lovely ability that our fine city has given our kind. But the only way that I'll become a master vampyre is to actually destroy my sire so that she is nothing but ash. As it is she just wanders around the city and doesn't really bother me so I don't have that itch. That's just my opinion on it, and...as I've said...I DO get why you would. I honor that. I honor that choice, even if it's not mine. Now this amuses me. I think this mostly strikes the largest cord within you? It's an inability to adapt to change quickly. It seems to be common amongst our kind to truly hate change. Immortality is thought to be wonderful but before you become immortal and yet dream about being one most think it's wonderful to live forever. What they always seem to lack is that their now is going to change the things they care about in that instant will never hold up to the test of time. Even as immortal as we are eventually we will have an end. Whether it be when the earth is destroyed or maybe we actually have a finite lifespan that exceeds millions of years. We do not know. what we do seem to see as a trend is that the longer you have lived the harder it is to accept things that change. We be immortals. Change happens we either adapt or not, but it's going to happen regardless. On the flip side, if I sire, that's it. You're sired. In my book it's for eternity. If you want to sever, then it will be on your own terms, but I will never 'set you free'. It's too important to me. That's not to downplay any other situation, because they are all very emotional and personal to those involved, but to me? It's just not who I am. This is admirable of you. I to do not sever from my sires. Once I agree to take them I refuse to leave. They have to force me away. On the other hand I willing sever childer who request it. If you choose to take up a life different from my own. I will set you free. I still believe in choice. And I believe in the rights of all being to choose what they wish. Vampire, Humans or other. This is what I call a clan, actually. Like minded vampires who are all striving to achieve the same goal? A bloodline can become clan like...that's very true, but it can also be something else. A coven. A gloriously dramatic combination of creatures created by one powerful vampire. Or a family. I think there's a misconception about my thoughts about that. You, the general you, finding a family is fantastic, if that's what you need. Sure - the cutesy names may make me cringe a bit, but so what. Those who are do-gooders, join clans that are for the light, play house, get pissed when I rob them in their homes also make me cringe. So what? Whatever floats your boat. YET - to forget that we have all been turned in many different fashions breeds judgment. You...the general you...make think I'm passing judgement. I'm not. I find it fascinating because there are those who garnish the Judeo-Christian beliefs, yet are vampire, DO pass judgement. I find that FASCINATING. It's why I'm interested in the debate to begin with. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts, and I look forward to reading more! For the most part I agree with you on this. Clans I believe have their place and their functions. My argument was only that I can't perceive valuing one more so than the other. They should each carry equal value else then your making a mental family of the other and disregarding them. Yes Judeo-Christian Vampires passing judgement is still mind boggling to me. Then again I predate christ so I can't claim I'm a christian although I've had to pose as one from time to time to at least understand their principles. But to pass judgement is also a choice and is thier right. I just hope they keep amusing those of us who find it humorous.
|
|
|
Post by Katastrophe St. John-Talon on Jul 5, 2009 7:24:12 GMT -8
I do, sorry Bug, find it sad that you are of the opinion of having one of your childer sever if they found themselves finding a soul mate with another in your line. I would be thrilled if two of my childer became enamored enough with each other to bind. However, what would one do if one day the two reach the point of severing each other? I think that's where I would find the difficulty because I'm sure that it would likely be difficult for the two to remain in the position of "siblings" after that. In that case, I think Bug's logic would avoid such an unpleasant outcome.
|
|
Damari
New Member
[C01:Yellow]
Posts: 1,410
|
Post by Damari on Jul 7, 2009 23:36:29 GMT -8
That's cause you're a fluff ball with about as much substance as candy floss. You're good for a little nibble, but too much of you and a person gets a belly ache & tooth decay. Aww, Damari's still obsessed with me. That's so cute. Every time I turn around, she's talking about me... and here I am, hardly ever giving her any notice. Well, here ya go, Damari, that attention you've been dying to get from me. You know, Edan says that too, he's also wrong. I think it makes him feel good to think it too, helps bolster that self esteem issue he has. But you know double what? *grin* When I'm right, I'm SO fucking right. *waves to Nightwalker* Hello duckie...
|
|