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Loyalty
Aug 11, 2008 22:36:23 GMT -8
Post by van on Aug 11, 2008 22:36:23 GMT -8
Loyalty is a subject that has been on the tip of many tongues these days. One only needs to look in the many varied papers of our fair city to see all points of the subject being hotly debated. Who's loyal to whom. Who ranks highest. What order should your loyalties lie in?
Some would say your loyalties should first and foremost be with your clan. Others say your family should be the first one you dedicate your loyalty to. While not necessarily wrong, I strongly disagree with those people. My loyalties do not lie with a clan as I am un-clanned. My loyalties do lie with my family, but they are not at the top of the list. So by now your probably thinking I'm a complete nut job or your actually curious as to where my loyalties lie. Who is at the top of my loyalties list. The answer to that question is quite simple. You see, I am at the top of that list. Yes, you heard right. Me, myself and I.
Sound odd? Perhaps to some. But allow me to explain why I feel this way. I firmly believe you cannot place your loyalties with another person, organization or clan until you know the truth that lies with in your own heart. How can you put one above the other on the loyalty list, if you don't know, deep down in your heart, who you'd put first. Figuring out where ones loyalties lie is not an easy task in the least. It requires deep introspection, lots of thought and careful consideration. It also requires being secure in the knowledge that no matter who's on top, some one is going to feel slighted.
Taking this into consideration, it is best to place your loyalties with whom ever is the best for you personally. Not because your family said to. Not because your clan said to. But because you truly believe, deep down in that black little heart of yours, that it's the best choice. The person or clan you are loyal to will always have your best interest at heart. There will be a balance of trust. A give and take relationship that requires work on both sides to thrive. If you notice this lacking, I do believe you should take a step back and view the bigger picture. And once you have done that, ask yourself one crucial, unlife changing question
Are my loyalties in the right place?
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Loyalty
Aug 11, 2008 23:51:53 GMT -8
Post by black_dragonet on Aug 11, 2008 23:51:53 GMT -8
*bows* There is much truth and wisdom into that...
Giving first loyalty to a group of people whose interest might eventually differ from yours, however much you trust and love them has always seemed dangerous to me. Giving first loyalty to oneself seems weird to me though, because I believe that making such a statement would make my clan or family leader wonder whether I am reliable or not. I have thus preferred to give my first loyalty to something that will never betray me or cause me harm: truth and honour. As the clan is loyal to these values, I have completely converging loyalties. The loop is completed... In being loyal to my clan, I am loyal to what I hold dearest.
There remains an open discussion whether the second loyalty should go to the clan of family. That question has as many different answers as there are vampires to ask.
I know of one clan who has quite settled that question, as it is mostly a family clan. OI has few members that are not family members. A few Merovingians have gone to other clans or left OI, but essentially, they will not have clan/family loyalty issues, for they are the same.
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Vella
New Member
[C01:red]
Posts: 205
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 2:29:11 GMT -8
Post by Vella on Aug 12, 2008 2:29:11 GMT -8
On the subject of loyalty, I have a question that I'd love some opinions on. Barring the fact that one is -not- a spy...why would anyone bind to a partner or join a clan if you did not plan on being loyal to one or both?
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 3:51:45 GMT -8
Post by black_dragonet on Aug 12, 2008 3:51:45 GMT -8
On the subject of loyalty, I have a question that I'd love some opinions on. Barring the fact that one is -not- a spy...why would anyone bind to a partner or join a clan if you did not plan on being loyal to one or both? As I have stated elsewhere, I place loyalty over the clan higher than loyalty to the line. Partners are another thing entirely. Whatever, I do not see many situations where being loyal to one means being disloyal to the other. If there were to be a fight between my clan and the clan of my sire, or even partner, I would have no issue fighting they and their clansmates. I do not believe that through fighting, I would become disloyal to any of them. I even believe the contrary: by refusing to attack my sire or partner, I could cause my clan to lose a war. That would be disloyalty to the clan, and also to my vow to protect the clan, hence to me, to honour, whom I place higher than the clan itself. I would most probably refrain from attacking my partner, for such things I do not do to her who shares my life. If she asked me to, or agreed to it, I'd honour her in fighting her, while making sure the ending shot be mine. I believe my clan leader would agree to that. However, as it happens Ophy and I are in the same clan, I don't see such even happening anywhere near in time. I believe that the loyalty issue goes beyond the "which side would you fight with, if any?" (in this case, it would be with the clan) It is about taking sides and supporting one against the other when the two oppose... It is about sticking to one's word, and having the deeds match the words and bear the consequences. In that, it becomes to me an issue with Truth and Honour, hence an issue of loyalty with… myself, loyalty towards what I am and makes me. In that, I agree with Vanadesse. Here are a few points for me to illustrate the above : - It is not disloyal to fight with one side while being angered at the acts of one clan or family, and telling so, whatever side you fight with, whatever side you're angry at. - It is not disloyal telling your clan or family leader that you'll fight against them, provided you’ve told them before you would. - It is not disloyal to tell them that you disagree with their words or deeds, even publicly, provided you don't air dirty laundry or classified information, as long as your acts follow your promises. - It is disloyal to make a promise and not hold it, be it a promise to do, or a promise not to. - It is disloyal to say something to someone, and the contrary to another one. - It is disloyal to disclose things you have promised not to disclose. (I believe Spensor to know what I'm speaking about) - It is disloyal to plot to overthrow or evict a leader, either from a family or a clan. Actually, and except for spies, I don't believe anyone plans on being disloyal to anyone from the start. Those who end up beind disloyal to one or the other I don(t think intended it from the beginning. They just are weak… In the clan/family/partner opportunity, they see a way to get more protection or take profit from the clan or family status, in exchange for something that seems to cost little, that is paid in words and not in deeds. They see the benefits and not the costs. The issues involved are usually remote, hence not really considered. When such a situation arises, some just don’t see beyond short-term and choose to forget previous promises. Some are just opportunists seeing and seizing opportunities to go at whatever they go at, be it women, money or power. Their loyalty go within themselves and never go beyond. When a situation arises and they have to choose between clan, family and themselves, they'll chose themselves and drop any promise or pledge they took. There are predators, craving for blood, money, sex, and eager to do whatever it take to get more. They have no idea what loyalty means. You’ll have to spell the word for them… Then there is the majority of those who never was confronted to the issue, because they’re just honest in what they do. They evolve and change, hence changing clans and/or families, while remaining loyal to them as long as they’re together. *bows* This being my humble opinion…
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 8:27:32 GMT -8
Post by van on Aug 12, 2008 8:27:32 GMT -8
Then there is the majority of those who never was confronted to the issue, because they’re just honest in what they do. They evolve and change, hence changing clans and/or families, while remaining loyal to them as long as they’re together. *bows* This being my humble opinion… And this is precisely the point I was trying to convey with this article. With the exception of spies, I would hope no one joins a clan to be disloyal. But some times there comes a time where your ideals (the general you not specific) and your clans ideals may differ. And that is when you need to step back and evaluate the situation. Can you still be loyal to an entity who's values and ideals are different from your own?
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rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 10:59:08 GMT -8
Post by rel on Aug 12, 2008 10:59:08 GMT -8
You can if you work this out prior to joining. Most clans will have this pretty well laid out for you: expectations, commitment requirements, financial requirements, etc.
Now, if you're in a school and you realize that the clan is not someplace you want to move into that's a different story. You may not know what you want if you're newly turned. But, if you're joining a clan without at least some of the facts, then how loyal could you possibly be expected to be?
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 14:20:11 GMT -8
Post by black_dragonet on Aug 12, 2008 14:20:11 GMT -8
And this is precisely the point I was trying to convey with this article. With the exception of spies, I would hope no one joins a clan to be disloyal. But some times there comes a time where your ideals (the general you not specific) and your clans ideals may differ. And that is when you need to step back and evaluate the situation. Can you still be loyal to an entity who's values and ideals are different from your own? The first thing my loyalty goes to is truth... Truth will eventually always work for you... Tell your leaders what you feel, what you object to, what you desire... someday you'll feel your ideals differ from the clan's ideals. Tell that to your leaders, and have them set you free. There is no disloyalty there... There is though if you start complaining and telling others what bothers you inside the clan to people outside the clan, especially to those quite opposing the clan. Chances are high that actually those words will be flung back to you face. If you've always told the truth and not shirked work, there is no reason you'll not be allowed to leave, with the hope that you'll come back some time later. The thing is, in essence, loyalty to truth and honour are loyalty towards yourself, yet is goes even beyond yourself... It only works if you are loyal to them... It goes along with credibility. Those two friends are a two-edged weapon. One I actually find so much easier to handle than lies and deceit...
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seyda
New Member
Posts: 844
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 14:36:31 GMT -8
Post by seyda on Aug 12, 2008 14:36:31 GMT -8
When I first came into the city, my first loyalties were to DarkestDesire and LoSD. When I realized that my ideals did not match theirs, I left and created RoR. My top loyalty was then to RoR. The day that I realized that my wife had replaced RoR as the thing I was most loyal to, I put the plans in motion to step down and leave RoR. Loyalty is not something that can grow and then change in the course of a few months. If you can be so fickle as to change your loyalties that quickly, then you have absolutely NO clue what it takes to be loyal to begin with, and as such, being loyal to only yourself is the only option left. Of course, you don't get very far with a loyalty base of one, so I guess there is a down side to being fickle. If you want an example of loyalty, then look at one of the respondents here. Since I've been in the city, rel has had the same clan, same partner, and same sire. She hasn't had 2 or more partners, clan hopped, and played swap a bloodline when she gets smacked for something. And now that I've had to actually compliment rel on something, I'm going to go back to my bathhouse and take a nice bleach shower.
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Boomerangele
New Member
Pleasurably Pink[C01:white]
Posts: 593
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Loyalty
Aug 12, 2008 19:26:12 GMT -8
Post by Boomerangele on Aug 12, 2008 19:26:12 GMT -8
Well, I got the clan and partner part down -- no changes there-- but the bloodline has changed to better fit who I want to be in the City.
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rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
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Loyalty
Aug 13, 2008 8:21:23 GMT -8
Post by rel on Aug 13, 2008 8:21:23 GMT -8
HA! Bleach doesn't work, you should KNOW that by now! The only thing to take away the stink is this... Glad to help...
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seyda
New Member
Posts: 844
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Loyalty
Aug 15, 2008 4:14:41 GMT -8
Post by seyda on Aug 15, 2008 4:14:41 GMT -8
Wouldn't you want to help your cause? I mean REALLY? Associating yourself with the Hoff? Thank you for reminding me that you suck.
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rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
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Loyalty
Aug 15, 2008 5:41:36 GMT -8
Post by rel on Aug 15, 2008 5:41:36 GMT -8
Oh Seyda, the compliments! Please.. please how you flatter is really too much. Kinda unclear what cause I actually need help on, but kudos for keeping me aware that I have so much more to learn from the likes of you.
Lessie here... bleach or David Hasselhoff circa 1982 Knight Rider. I think the choice is obvious. But, of COURSE you consider that schlock. Duly noted for the future...
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seyda
New Member
Posts: 844
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Loyalty
Aug 16, 2008 4:30:53 GMT -8
Post by seyda on Aug 16, 2008 4:30:53 GMT -8
Awareness is the name of my game, yanno. And I know that I'm blonde and totally hot, but I'm so not German. *wink*
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Damari
New Member
[C01:Yellow]
Posts: 1,410
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Loyalty
Aug 20, 2008 18:02:17 GMT -8
Post by Damari on Aug 20, 2008 18:02:17 GMT -8
I have had this loyalty clash and lost a childer over it. At the end of the day my family will understand that my clan is an integral part of who I am.
The loyalty will be to them because that is what I have chosen. If one day I am asked to kill any of my little abbreviated line, I will do so. Because it is an honour to serve those that deserve the oath I have given to serve and a testament to my ability to separate love and duty.
If you can’t or are unwilling to make the sacrifice to be that then you are little more than a dilettante and all the pissing and moaning about your supposed dignity is superfluous.
You can not qualify duty. If you require qualification then get the fuck out of the clan.
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