Liander
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Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
Posts: 430
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Post by Liander on Nov 5, 2009 12:40:02 GMT -8
We've all seen what's been going on in the papers recently, so I won't bother with the pointless details. However, I speak with one or two people on both sides of this "conflict," so I feel that I have a bit more perspective on this than others.
Let's start with the NightWatch. As per their creed, they tell us they are our guardians and protectors, much like the police that the humans have. They hold to such values as honor and integrity. Some see them as useless, while others see them as doing a great service for our city.
Then we have the Splinters of Dusk. Some call them lowlife mercenaries, yet others see them as ones who are just doing their job. They teach that blood is meaningless, which is a belief I share with them.
In the past few weeks, things have reached somewhat of a boiling point between these two groups. The simple facts are that someone hired the Splinters to attack a member of NightWatch, and the NightWatch retaliated. Violently.
The Splinters have stood their ground and held to their beliefs by not striking back. Put simply, there is no point for them to strike back. They did their job, and they are done with the matter.
It is, in my opinion, the NightWatch who have broken their own morals. They are supposed to protect us and guide us, yet all they are doing is throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year-old human.
Everyone knows the Splinters do not attack for personal reasons. They are given coin, a target, and they do their job. NightWatch attacking them simply makes no sense. None. Why attack someone who is only doing their job? If the NightWatch wants retaliation so badly, they should find out who made the contract, and go after them.
The NightWatch also claim that honor is their highest priority, yet I have seen no such example of this. They are attacking defenseless targets for no reason other than personal satisfaction. Not only that, but the attacks in of themselves are honorless.
They've displaced during battles, giving their foes no chance at an "honorable" fight. They've attacked within the area surrounding the Graveyard, breaking their own laws.
But it is not only this recent conflict that makes me lose faith in their group. It is their past actions. Or rather, lack thereof.
Was it the NightWatch who first retaliated when Wyndcryer's vigil was scrolled? No.
Have the NightWatch ever protected those countless fledglings being zeroed day after day? No.
Is it the NightWatch who selflessly visit the ghettos and slums, seeking to help our young? No.
And what of when the Midnights began zeroing the transit guards? NightWatch offered no protection, and the guards soon began hiding behind blue cloaks and pink panties.
I have stood by and watched as countless, HELPLESS, individuals are given no aid whatsoever by the Nightwatch.
But the Splinters do their job. They attack without personal meaning, they teach us that blood is not the end. They stand strong and proud, yet they never boast of their deeds, save a simple - "Zeroed because of a contract" when posting a casualty.
NightWatch, you claim to be our guardians. You claim that you help those who are helpless.
Prove it.
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Post by coolhandluke on Nov 5, 2009 12:45:55 GMT -8
I made a post in another thread about this same topic. For the record I do not support any police force.. that's on moral grounds.
But the way I see it the Nightwatch is trying to shut the splinters down. They see them as criminals and are trying to put them out of business. No matter how much they say blood doesn't matter, you need some to fight. Keep them below that level and they're neutralized. The fact that the splinters do not fight back makes them sitting ducks for an effective police force to shut down completely. I'm not saying the nightwatch are effective... cause I don't know shit about them. Just my 2 cents.
Edit to add:
And if they splinters do fight back, then the nightwatch got them to break their own code, which is a small moral victory.
Oh yeah, fuck the police!
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CG Dragonfly
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Luminous Dragonfly[C01:66CCFF]
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Post by CG Dragonfly on Nov 5, 2009 13:50:59 GMT -8
Just a couple lil points from an outsider to both groups.
SoD attacked more than one member of the NightWatch [smitsmit, Solanea]. The Transit and Grave Guards are part of the NightWatch if some were unaware.
SoD by their own codex is not allowed to retaliate for attacks against them. They are to take the hits and do their jobs.
I also believe smitsmit stated himself that in the codes of the NightWatch that only the Graveyard itself is protected at this time. It may be extended to the adjoining blocks if I'm recalling correctly.
Some view the area around the Graveyard as sacred, others do not. It comes down to differing points of view or teachings.
I think I made sense. >.>
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Liander
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Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
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Post by Liander on Nov 5, 2009 14:03:06 GMT -8
SoD attacked more than one member of the NightWatch [smitsmit, Solanea]. The Transit and Grave Guards are part of the NightWatch if some were unaware. Because of a contract. Attacking them for it, regardless of how many people were hit, is pointless. I'm also aware Transit and Grave guards are NightWatch members. Yet, not a single non-guard stood up and fought for them. They hid like cowards. The NightWatch keep claiming they are protectors and guardians, but I've never seen it. They do nothing but sit around on their pedestals, believing themselves better than others. They claim a lot of things. It's high time they started backing up all their talk.
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CG Dragonfly
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Luminous Dragonfly[C01:66CCFF]
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Post by CG Dragonfly on Nov 5, 2009 14:25:04 GMT -8
I think during that incident there weren't as many NightWatch non-guards. If I remember correctly since that was months ago.
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smitsmit
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NightWatch Captain
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Post by smitsmit on Nov 5, 2009 16:46:11 GMT -8
That is true. At the time our organization was very small and the guards themselves made up the bulk of the active NightWatch. It was determined having the guards fight back against attacks was a mistake, as it was a severe distraction from their normal duties, and loss of blood does not prevent the guards from conducting their station duties. The guards do not rest. No vials will ever be thrown by a transit guard again. Their response will be limited to displacement of troublemakers. It will be up to other NightWatch members to respond to attacks on our guards. Them going blue was not done to protect their blood, (obviously, since it didn't). Four of the transit guards had already been blue prior to the attacks so they could scroll crowded/blocked banks with minimal blood damage to occupants. The guards do not even bite from other vampires, only humans. Since I had decided the Guards would be standing down to attacks, there was now no reason the rest of the guards shouldn't take the same procedure with the cloaks. Transit Guard code of conduct can be seen here.This will be very rare in that I will actually thank the Midnights for that incident. For it is what resulted since then that allowed me to become more active around the city, and work with others to attempt to rebuild the NightWatch to it's original form and goals. As for the Wyndcryer Vigil. We're we the first to respond to the desecration? No. If someone goes into a a funeral and starts desecrating the dead, I'm pretty sure everyone will jump on the assailant to get a piece. At the time we had guards posted at each vigil and had been monitoring the situation carefully. We assisted with the attacks on the desecrators, and many were displaced by us during their attempts to return to a vigil. Others were called into interrogation to determine their intent. We continued to monitor these perpetrators for months after the fact. One of whom still remains in RB's dungeon to this day. We handed out hundreds of roses to those gathered at those vigils, our transit guards informed those in the area of the memorial events, and directed them to the sites. After this, we worked to collect information about all who are listed in the Graveyard and create a permanent memorial book. This book is permanently located in the city one block south of the Graveyard at our Headquarters. Our organization is still very small in comparison to other groups or city clans. We do what we can, and will investigate any report which is made to us. In the case of the splinters, over the month of October we had received numerous reports from those being attacked by the splinters prior to the direct attacks on the NightWatch. The NightWatch engagement of splinters was both in response to the attack on our officers, and the attacks on numerous others in the city who were victims of attacks, not done by a contractor attempting to resolve a personal grudge. Seemingly a contractor who now wishes to have anyone attacked regardless of their status, affiliation, or if they've even harmed another vampire before. And of course, the splinters are more than eager to act as the proxy vials in making this happen. Of course the contractor, whomever it may be, is to blame. But the splinters are also to blame for making it happen, and directly throwing the vials. For without them, the contractor would be the one going around the city trying to do this, and would likely be zeroed before it happens. Although truthfully, those who have stood against us, or requested us to stand down, have provided valuable clues which may help in determining the contractor. I should take a moment to point out that the NightWatch does not wish by any means to act as a self-propelled vigilante force. Our original creation was that of a city police force whose laws and actions were controlled by city representatives. We currently have a debate open on this issue, in which our clan representatives and civilian senators are welcome to vote on the current splinters issue. And any an all are welcome to voice their opinion, but please remember personal attacks on others in the debate will NOT be tolerated. The Civilian Legislation Association debate is located here. Any clan who does not have an ambassador registered with us, may contact me or another officer privately identifying yourself, your clan, and your wish to become an ambassador, after which point you will be given a vote. I have personally apologized for the attack which occurred adjacent to the Graveyard. Our codes do not enforce protection of any area but Larch and 50th itself. I acted hastily in self defence, but in bad judgement. In honesty, the attacks that morning which occurred while I was in NightWatch Headquarters was the first major attack on me in the four years i've spent in this city. I do not take issue with displacing attackers to bring the fight out of that area. But again, I do apologize, and it will not happen again. In future I hope our codes are modified to clarify this more, and perhaps define codes protecting other memorials in the city, eg: Wishing Well, Wyndcryer layer, etc if it's owners agree to such assistance. QUOTE:I have stood by and watched as countless, HELPLESS, individuals are given no aid whatsoever by the Nightwatch.Unfortunately, we are not omniscient. By all means Liander, if you see someone who needs help, please refer them to us, or report the issue to us and it will be investigated. QUOTE:NightWatch, you claim to be our guardians. You claim that you help those who are helpless. Prove it. All I can tell you is that we will do our best, and we will not give up. The current state of the city makes things difficult for us, and moreso with a lack of city support. However, we will not give up. [a href="http://[del:smitsmit]"]http://[del:smitsmit][/a]
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Spinner
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Gehyra Dex
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Post by Spinner on Nov 5, 2009 17:23:10 GMT -8
This city has always had those who claim to be protectors of it's residents, both created by groups and self-proclaimed. As in the past, it has never worked and will not work. There will always be those who will rise up against the so-called protectors and see that they are bullies just like the rest. SoD are not bullies.
SoD are assassins for hire by those without the guts to do the hitting themselves. They are not pires who think themselves above others in order to "police" the city, to tell vampires what is right and what is wrong. They are not pires who charge extra fees above the cost of weapons to get a job done. They are not pires who hit others because of a wrong done to them or their clan or family.
NW, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame while you can. Who knows, maybe someone will come along and descend upon you saying you have broken the rules of the city, of which there are none other than what the Lord RB prescribes.
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 5, 2009 19:30:21 GMT -8
Policing the city is idealistic and sweetly naive.
The Splinters serve a purpose.
You can hate the message but hating the messenger is the height of stupidity.
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Spinner
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Gehyra Dex
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Post by Spinner on Nov 5, 2009 19:52:40 GMT -8
Policing the city is idealistic and sweetly naive. The Splinters serve a purpose. You can hate the message but hating the messenger is the height of stupidity. Well stated. Granted, the message of SoD is deeper than just being assassins who are only paid the amount of coin that the weapons used cost.
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Damia
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Post by Damia on Nov 5, 2009 20:32:45 GMT -8
Policing the city is idealistic and sweetly naive. The Splinters serve a purpose. You can hate the message but hating the messenger is the height of stupidity. A much better way to say this then my thoughts in the other discussion being held on this matter. Though technically are now not at three. Perhaps there should a soapbox simply for splinter issues since they seem so popular. While I understand from your views that your understaffed, small and unable to keep up with what must seem to be a huge city at times. These two quotes caught me sir.
Lack of city support and lack of psychic ability. Now as I said in the other discussion, your fan Eternal bug, seemed under this belief that you had done so much good and that the splinters are such "bad". Which I then pointed out there is no such proof given at any time of my stay in this city that you have even really followed the codes he named, nor had he proven that the splinters, who in reality are simply messengers though perhaps not the favored ones in the past, had done such bad.
Now. You give us two reasons, well technically three. Understaffed, no city support and lack of ability to know when others are being hurt. As Liander pointed out, a point I had not, I'll restate it once more. There is a place, an alley way in the city where many go to find out information or seek others. So are you unable to walk into the ghetto area? For would not there be many in need of help laying there? As well that might solve the lack of psychic ability for not knowing when others have need of you. Though considering you are on the bite and read it frequently, espicially now that your name is everywhere. I find it interesting that in issues that pop up in the casualty area, you can not find something that your code would demand you act on.
As to your second and third points. Understaffed. Well that can be understood by any clan or even those who run a newspaper or hall in this city. But a simple solution is to recruit. It seems you have fans out there, why not simply go to them and try them out.
Now lack of city support. Unlike my friend dragonet, I do not share a whole hearted feeling of admiration for you. Simply because, other then your attacking the SoD, I have seen nor heard of any other actions by your group. But it seems interesting you expect such support. No one I believe would have asked any of you to create a group to police a group of immortals who have mostly grown out of time periods where any local "police" type force were seen as necessary evils. A few of my brethren being older even still have probably been in wars where it was them against the local militia owned by the highest bidder. Which strangely seems like a group you particularly dislike. But besides that issue, I also feel I must point out that you have done nothing big or small, to warrant such support. Nor if I were in your position would I. For you and others made your clan to police those who might not want such actions. So then for you to assume simply because you spout a good line, that others will praise you and follow, well that seems a bit much. But then I have seen those who have spouted such lines and then wrecked the very people they spoke them to. So perhaps I am a bit more cynical then I used to be.
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Post by Jean DeVenn on Nov 6, 2009 11:54:45 GMT -8
There is something the NightWatch have been doing very well for several years now, without seeking praise or thanks. They have run the Transit Guards quietly and effectively for as long as I have been in the city. Now, you may think this a minor thing, but it shows significant dedication, and there have been a number of times when I've been low on energy and thankful for the help.
As to the wider role of the NightWatch, I believe the city has a need for some kind of police. The NightWatch make clear they don't intervene in clan affairs, so won't be treading on any toes. Such policing needs to be done with a light touch, sympathy and consent.
I have seen standards in the city deteriorate over the years. When the majority of active vampires were members of just a few large clans, those clans enforced discipline to a greater or lesser extent. Now that we have become fragmented into a myriad of small clans and many more independents than before, I think we need something to provide the most basic of structure. Without it, we are no better than beasts.
I'm not advocating some kind of police state, which the NightWatch has nowhere near the resources to enforce (even if they wished to). But they give weaker independent vampires somewhere to turn to seek assistance. I'd like to see them providing the backup to some kind of arbitration service to resolve disputes. This won't turn the city into any kind of paradise, I recognise this, but it may help to remove some of the more pointless quarrels and misunderstandings.
Of course, the alternative is for people to turn to the Splinters. But the Splinters don't deliver justice, they deliver revenge and hurt, with the victims having no opportunity to negotiate or put right whatever perceived wrong they may have done. Sometimes there is no reason at all for a contract beyond "it would be funny" or "I don't like you". I wonder how many of those currently singing their praises will change their tune when it's their turn to be on the receiving end of a contract ?
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 6, 2009 13:10:59 GMT -8
Depends on WHO you think is singing their praise at the moment or the definition of praise. *smiles*
~HiS~
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Liander
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Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
Posts: 430
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Post by Liander on Nov 6, 2009 13:25:56 GMT -8
There is something the NightWatch have been doing very well for several years now, without seeking praise or thanks. They have run the Transit Guards quietly and effectively for as long as I have been in the city. Now, you may think this a minor thing, but it shows significant dedication, and there have been a number of times when I've been low on energy and thankful for the help. As to the wider role of the NightWatch, I believe the city has a need for some kind of police. The NightWatch make clear they don't intervene in clan affairs, so won't be treading on any toes. Such policing needs to be done with a light touch, sympathy and consent. I have seen standards in the city deteriorate over the years. When the majority of active vampires were members of just a few large clans, those clans enforced discipline to a greater or lesser extent. Now that we have become fragmented into a myriad of small clans and many more independents than before, I think we need something to provide the most basic of structure. Without it, we are no better than beasts. I'm not advocating some kind of police state, which the NightWatch has nowhere near the resources to enforce (even if they wished to). But they give weaker independent vampires somewhere to turn to seek assistance. I'd like to see them providing the backup to some kind of arbitration service to resolve disputes. This won't turn the city into any kind of paradise, I recognise this, but it may help to remove some of the more pointless quarrels and misunderstandings. Of course, the alternative is for people to turn to the Splinters. But the Splinters don't deliver justice, they deliver revenge and hurt, with the victims having no opportunity to negotiate or put right whatever perceived wrong they may have done. Sometimes there is no reason at all for a contract beyond "it would be funny" or "I don't like you". I wonder how many of those currently singing their praises will change their tune when it's their turn to be on the receiving end of a contract ? That entire arguement is based off the assumption that you're needed or wanted. Put bluntly, you're not. Independent vampires aren't independent so they can be governed by the NightWatch when they piss someone off, they're independent because they don't want to have to listen to anyone. You say if things continue, we're no better than beasts. True or not, one thing will always remain a fact - You can not, under any circumstances, presume you have the right to say what someone can or can't do. If we choose to be beasts, that's our perogative. Don't shove your beliefs on anyone else. I've spoken to many people on this issue, and the majority is swaying one way. No one likes the NightWatch, no one thinks they're needed. They don't do anything and no one wants them.Splinters provide a service that is welcomed by all, regardless of alignment or clan affiliation. In providing this service, they also teach us a valuable lesson - That zero blood is not finality. NightWatch, on the opposite hand, provide a service no one gives half a shit about, or wants in the first place. You think anyone cares about the guards? I can rob someone for the few coins it takes to ride. If your dumbass shows up there without money to travel, it's your own damn fault. I'm only going to say this one more time - RavenBlack city does not, has not, and will not ever need any sort of policing. So go shove it up your ass.
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Tifereth
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Because some people have short memory.
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Post by Tifereth on Nov 6, 2009 13:44:32 GMT -8
...Woah. There wasn't really any need to go down Jean's throat like that--it was merely his opinion, as you were stating yours. I can't see how any lineage or Clan would ever want you as a member, much less a leader. What a shame. Vampires choose to have morals or not, like everything, it's a matter of perspective and it's hardly your place to condone or condemn a point of view, much less that rudely.
Eitherway, I believe that they're merely wasting their times--the Splinters can easily necro for the next contract, considering I doubt any of their BP's were that high to begin with. Wether the NightWatch's services are relevant here or not is not the issue. It's just their waste of weapons, time, and coins, because the Splinters are simply not going to retaliate. All in all, good for them, if they're having fun, but it's still kind of useless.
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Post by black_dragonet on Nov 6, 2009 14:27:41 GMT -8
Liander... A few people have expressed that they liked a bigger or smaller part of what the Nightwatch does. I have not seen all that they do, but when I started, and sometimes since, I have welcomed the few coins when I was foolish enough to leave without coinage. Their making sure the Graveyard isn't desecrated is something I like too.
They are not to force their law onto anyone? Well, everyone does, just because they can, don't they? People choosing to be rebels, because being a rebel is "that" cool should not expect people to resepct their belief any more than they respect the other one's beliefs.
Treat people the way you want them to treat you. Don't complain if they treat you the way you do.
This has become a for or against the Nightwatch, when the topic reads "NW vs Splinters". I don't think fighting the splinters is that good an idea, but it's logical. I'd just refrain from doing it until I have a decent chance to win in the long run, or make sure I can make them useless for a significant time.
I fear and feel you are being prejudiced. Don't ask from anyone what's impossible. Ask them to do well what they do.
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