virgo_shelly
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Post by virgo_shelly on Dec 3, 2009 13:10:12 GMT -8
Now this thought process it pretty much just about RBC, but I'm sure it can span over many games online.
Tell me, why is it that people feel the need to be disrespectful, hateful, malicious, and drama queens because they are behind a computer screen? We as players know whats ok and whats not. I don't care how you feel about them, from what you know online, usually. However I do feel that every person who plays a game, deserves to be treated with at least some respect. Now if they fucked you over really bad, I can understand not giving the player much respect because your upset.
But! player-player relationships shouldn't be as shitty as char-char relationships. And I'm not going to touch on player-char relationships which most of the time shouldn't exist.
I'm not to naive to think that everyone on a player basis will get along. But there should be a point where players know they are crossing the line. Example: Damari a few weeks back went a little psycho on bite. That, in my opinion is fine, to a point. Majica's player soon after wanted the threads about her to stop in that respect. Now, I very briefly talked to both humans and I think an easy compromise could have been reached had the two of them actually talked about it. Damari saying what she wants about Majica, pfft whatever, Majica's human feeling harassed should have been a stop to it, for now.
I'm not saying that Damari should stop talking shit about Majica, thats her right, but in that moment, in that instant, the player could have dropped it and left it be as courtesy to the other player.
I'm not picking on Damari, it was just an easy example to think of, many others have done the same thing. Is it really ok to say fuck all about the other human behind the screen because your playthings don't get along and you feel the need to be a bitch to the best of your ability?
Where is the common courtesy for other humans? Does it exist out side of the 'circles' your vampires run in?
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Beezil
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IC: Beezil | OOC: Emma
Posts: 123
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Post by Beezil on Dec 3, 2009 13:23:01 GMT -8
I believe there should be boundaries between character relationships and personal human to human relationships. If you get along outside the game, great. But for me personally, I don't like the idea of being friends with most of the people that play mmorpgs, including this one. It's just too weird. It screws up character relationships most of the time too, and I really think most players can't separate the two once they become buddies outside of the game. There are exceptions of course... but over all I think it's best not to reveal yourself to the other players in the game.
Example: World of Warcraft. Worst player base EVER. The jerks in RBC are angels compared to some of the trash in WoW. I played that game for 5+ years, got in a great guild, made friends... got to know them, they got to know me, etcetera. Then it started with the harassment. Certain members of the guild I was in thought it was appropriate to sexually harass me because I was female, bash my skills in the game, etcetera. I was threatened with physical violence over ventrilo (for those of you who don't know it's a voice chat server provider thingy) on many occasions. I was good about ignoring it for the most part. But one day, we were in a raid for 5+ hours. I couldn't really leave... if you've ever played WoW and been in a raid you probably understand, especially if you were a healer. For 4 hours, ONE guy was yelling at me in game chat and in vent about how much I sucked and whining about how I stole his "loot". The loot being a cape my guild master GAVE to me.
Anyway. By the end of it, I was in tears and vowed never to play WoW again, haven't since. I refuse to ever get that personally involved in any game ever again.
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Idony
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IGN: Idony | OOC: Cora
Posts: 1,581
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Post by Idony on Dec 3, 2009 13:39:55 GMT -8
People online tend to be more rude than I've seen them here actually. It's the freedom that being behind a screen can offer. There are no repercussions, so people can do what they like online Personally, I reserve that for RP games. But I'm significantly more assertive and bitchy online than in real life. And given how mild I am in life, that means quite a lot.
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rel
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byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
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Post by rel on Dec 3, 2009 13:50:30 GMT -8
The reason? There's too much gray area. A character sleeps around so the player must be the same. The things a character does are attributed to what the player's ideals are. It's nonsense. It's ALWAYS been nonsense. The second someone starts explaining actions in an IC section based on OOC reasons is the second I tune out. I don't care. Again I'll say nooooo this doesn't mean that I don't care about the human being, it's that it is completely irrelevant to anything that I have rel do.
This is a world of fantasy where the character itself is purely fiction. Sure, there are always things within RL that inspire us to write a certain way or to delve into a situation, but the actions? Fiction. If you cross, too bad for you. It happens. The characters become too real, we are emotional as humans and feelings can get hurt, but that's not the other players fault - especially if you're not friends or don't even know them ooc. It's honestly a personal problem, and one which usually means that it's time to take a step back and reassess what your goals are in playing this game.
Fun yes? To write? To socialize under a made up persona being a character that you could never be in RL? Play a man when you're a woman or the opposite? What does any of that have to do with ooc once you walk into Ravenblack AS that character and start to breathe life into them? Nothing.
OOC sections spawn this gray area where you can be under the impression that we are these two facets...us as the player and us as the character. They bleed all over the place within the IC and OOC forums. Use my real name please this is ooc. pffft. That's silly. Honestly it's a trivial silly thing to get on a soapbox about. If we're discussing GAME things then calling things in a debate forum with character names isn't anything other than using clarity to make a point. The entire thing reeks of being overly sensitive and running OOC when things get too rough IC.
I'm not trying to dismiss your point. Things do cross and when that happens it's important to have moderators come in to settle things down. But my point stands. You see it all over the place. Emotional ooc reactions fueling ic decisions.
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Elektra
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Obsession. Compulsion. Perfection.[C01:Grey]
Posts: 950
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Post by Elektra on Dec 3, 2009 13:58:48 GMT -8
But I'm significantly more assertive and bitchy online than in real life. And given how mild I am in life, that means quite a lot. You! *prods* So quiet! Until we get you started on philosophy and psychology. BWAHA. We should talk forensics. Like -really- talk. >.>
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Post by Damiana Jones on Dec 3, 2009 14:11:05 GMT -8
There's only a few people that I don't mind having friendships outside of the game with. And it's usually the people I've RPed the most with during the four years I've been here. Other than that...I don't try too much to make everyone my friend OOC RBC. And I try really hard to make sure I keep IC from OOC. And I've been fortunate enough to have people who I can...Like I talk to everyone about my RPs with Uriah,or Damiana, even Tochtli because with these people, I trust that they won't cross. I have yet to meet any friend of mine that has cross with me. Even Aaron (Daly) never crossed with me and we were like this. (crossing fingers) Lol.
I wish people were a bit more respectful OOC to each other. I wish people did take into account that they aren't the only ones whose characters need a bit of RP. When someone says..."I'm not having fun." I think it should be taken into account. The response shouldn't be.."Well, too bad." Everyone -wants- to say they'd go with the RP even if they aren't having fun with it. But I hardly think that's the case. And everyone's been more than obvious to say they'd like to plan. So people really should start planning.
I'm a pretty bubbly person, Shai can witness to that. I don't get angry too often. But when I do...It's pretty bad. The only time I get really..yucky on here with people is when they talk to me like I'm stupid because I'm 19 years old. It's like I know I haven't been around for long and I never claim to know -everything- but I've experienced enough stuff in life to know what I am talking about in certain areas.
I've always been able to have discussions with people a lot older than me about different things and going ons. Never once have they ever put up the argument of me being too young. If I didn't know someone, they'd tell me. That's why I hate discussions with some of the older players because if they don't agree with what I say, (not that they have to) , instead of going into a better discussion. I get the "you're too young to have a good opinion on anything. Blah blah blah." No. Don't belittle me.
Oh. And I don't do the gossip thing like most players do. If someone has a problem with another player, I usually make them go talk to them. Not me. I hate the "so and so said you said this. Blah blah blah." Uh. No. I saw enough of that in high school. And I'd think since most people are older playing this game they would have enough sense not to gossip.
ETA: I didn't see the other posts before I posted mine. Lol
Yes! The gray areas. I think we have created gray areas. There's a lot of OOC bs here. But if you go to other RP forums, all they have for OOC is games and absence listings. If people are friends OOC it's because they either introduce their friends to the game. Or...they enjoy the chemistry their characters have together that they want to make sure they are on the same page on where to go with their RP.
Which has happened to me. I've met people whose characters are just instant with mine. And so we'd talk. I'd tell them when I'm going out of town so they'd know. And vise versa. But there is little OOC in other RP forums. At times I envy that. Which is why I spend most of my time on those forums. But I come here because it still is my first love. And I love a lot of my friends too much to just ditch.
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Post by black_dragonet on Dec 3, 2009 14:12:46 GMT -8
Char - Char relationships are what bring fun to this game. When a Character with substance appears, then I as a player try to assess whether he is going to get on well with black_dragonet or not. The thing is a good enemy is sometimes more valuable than a good friend. This (crossing) is how black_dragonet came to hate Kaio. There once was a moment when I, player, had to decide if I would make dragonet an enemy from Kaio, or a friend. I wonder if Rob remembers that conversation Kaio and dragonet had when it was found out that he was starting his clan, and he was killed by SIE. At that time, they were friends, and Rob and I had great fun together. At that time I decided that it would be funnier to have Kaio as a foe to dragonet than as a friend.
Char - Player relationships I can onlt think of when thinking about the relation there is between us players and the character(s) we play. There's always a side of us in our characters. Either something we cannot be in our lives and wish we were, or something we are and want to be more, or something else, deeply in relation to us players.
Player - player relationships... That IS a topic I like... I met people through this game. Real people. I physically met some (Lady Ophy and Hesu), and could have met some more if they had wanted to. I immensely enjoyed both encounters, though meeting Elisabeth really was a shock. I believe and hope I gave her the Paris tour of her life, me riding her through Paris parisian style, and showing her all the amazing places of the city when she brought me to meet a weird man she'd met in her San Francisco years to listen to their underground stories. There's another person I have to meet, and I dare think the encounter will be even more memorable. There are people I got to chat with with whom I hope to keep relations, because they just are very nice people. I am very fond of a few of you I met in the game. I don't really care about your vampires, even though I tend to get on well with vampires whose humans I like. I am richer from my interactions and discussions with some of you, and I hope you feel richer from your interactions with me. That's the positive side of it.
There's a negative side. Character - character relationships sometimes are bad, and more than once, I have had to get away from the keyboard, read a book, do something else... We players ARE affected by what happens to our characters. I player once felt quite ashamed at something I had dragonet say, which was completely sound IC, but was heartless OOC. I felt bad, yet felt it necessary to have dragonet reply with his usual coldhearted demeanor. I hope you have forgiven me for that, Stephanie. Sometimes, I have dragonet say mean things to other characters, usually in a cold and detached way. Sometimes (well he almost always does that) I have petit_prince insult other vampires. I hope the humans behind the vampires are not too much affected. Were one of you players really distressed by him or his behaviour, please come to me, and we'll work together towards a solution that is fitting the situation and the characters. The bad side of player - player relationships I found easier to handle: pull the plug. There are some people I simply chose to not interact with anymore, or to not try to interact with. It's easier since they live in this alternate reality where I simply don't exist. There are others I just avoid, because I am wary of them. Anyway, even though I like OOC discussions, I keep most of these in the realm of virtuality, or on the other side of what I call the virtuality wall. You may know my surname, job, car, likings, but not my phone number, nor my address. When and if I give you access to that data, it means that I really trust you beyond that wall, into my real life.
On the subject of friendship, I'd like to say that it happens. It DOES happen. It does just rarely happen overnight. Trust takes time to build and strengthen. Sometimes, for odd reasons, a liking develops between people, and if it does, then I find it to be fine. As long as the virtuality wall is not crossed, most that this virtual relation does is good. When that wall is crossed and a meeting takes place, then either the friendship enters the world of reality, or it dissolves. Both ways, it is better. Either the illusion of a friendship is dissolved, or a strong one is born.
If this game or a person hurts you: pull the plug.
Just. Do. It.
There's a life and people loving you outside there...
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Damari
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[C01:Yellow]
Posts: 1,410
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Post by Damari on Dec 3, 2009 14:15:03 GMT -8
But you ARE saying that Damari should stop talking shit about Majica based on Monica having a problem with Damari talking shit about her character. So it’s Monica asking me to stop Damari. I just go bleaaagh at that point.
I know you’re not picking on me or Damari but she gets raised as an example quite a bit, which does mean I get to chime in on this one a lot.
I don’t have an emotional investment in Damari. Who she is, what she is, what she will become has very little impact on me or outside of checking the two forums I do (Bite & Clan) what I think about.
Damari is a fictional character, who isn’t real in any sense beyond what I make up for her. She is this non-entity I created over the years to fill up the wasted hours between the end of day and sleep. (or when I’m at the office trying to take my mind off spearheading a company with a multi-million dollar profit and loss portfolio in the middle of a recession year)
I assume, when I’m playing Damari, that it is the same for other players. That their characters trials and tribulations aren’t emotionally taxing for them. I love it when Damari is being given a hard time, or she’s being crucified for something. I’m in my element writing her having emo moments. It’s great stuff.
I don’t know Monica. Barely talk to her, barely talk to about 92% of the people who play this game. It’s rare I strike up an ooc discussion with anyone on so personal a level that I come to know them and invest emotional friendship with them.
MY common courtesy when playing this game with other people (that 92% I don’t know) is that I stick to the rules of RP engagement. I keep the lines of ooc and ic intact and I expect the same of the others.
I don’t go moaning ooc when Damari is called every name under the sun and you better believe she has, because she’s just not real. I’ve got upset about some things and just let it slide cause getting upset about a fictional being is unavoidable sometimes, but certainly not something to lug on other people who are just playing their characters.
I imagine Damari has than Majica. Hell, I’ve taken more shit as the writer of Damari.
It’s not that I’m not friendly. Cause I am. I can be gracious and kind, empathic and forgiving but I’m also pretty fucking ‘walk the line’ straight up, a bit of a rule prude and given my tenacious and pedantic nature, strict about crossing the barrier between Damari and myself.
Can’t it just be about ‘playing the game’. Just play it. Don’t bring your ooc emotions into the mix or if you do, use a little of your own personal judgment.
It was wrong of Monica to ask anyone to stop what they were doing ooc. There was very good IC reason for it but Monica didn’t like it, so Monica tried to stop it when the characters ganging up on Majica were doing it for very good IC reasons.
So now it’s our fault Monica got upset?
My courtesy to Monica was to acknowledge ooc that she had concerns, discuss my stance on what she’d raised in polite, clear and concise terms, leaving in no doubt that it wasn’t personal or that I was doing it to be malicious to her personally and then drop it.
My courtesy to anyone is to attempt polite discussion, even firm discussion, raise the points I feel a relevant – then leave it alone.
Anyone’s courtesy should be to deal with their emotional attachment to their characters. We all have them in part, but to ask another writer to change their character because of your own inability to keep emotional distance isn’t fair.
It’s not my place to worry about the emotional stability of the writers behind the characters that Damari interacts with.
Common sense overrules THAT level of courtesy.
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rel
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byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
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Post by rel on Dec 3, 2009 14:20:52 GMT -8
Huh...now if rel said you're too young I, as the writer, would be referring to your character and never you. I don't know you. Until you just said something I wouldn't know your age. That's you taking what someone is writing IC and personalizing it instead of seeing it as a character, who may be a pompous ass, pulling the "i'm ancient and know everything" card. If you say 'I'm not having any fun', I would also see it as your character because, again, I don't know you. Usually I see that when a) a new player comes in stating that their character knows things they should have no knowledge about because they weren't there (meaning taking ooc information and putting it in your character's history) b) starting shit they can't back up as their character and then not being able to handle it when they're taken down or c) they deal with others who cross and start to make judgments on your personally instead of just dealing with your character IC.
Simply put...
If your character fucks around and breaks up half the marriages in RBC that has nothing to do with you as a person. If your partner 'cheats', it's not OOC...or at least it shouldn't be handled that way IC if you're ventured down that gray area of mixing. If your character is a spy it doesn't mean that you're a liar and dishonest in real life. If you shit talk during a war it doesn't mean that you're not a nice person IRL. If you're 'enemies' IC that doesn't mean that you hate them IRL. In fact I think it's more fun BECAUSE you don't hate them IRL. If you're zeroed it doesn't mean people don't like you.
There is toooooo much crossing. It has to, honestly, stop.
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rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
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Post by rel on Dec 3, 2009 14:31:24 GMT -8
Oooh to add (since it was brought up) Of COURSE I've made friendships ooc, yet any relationship that i've had OOC has that line very firm. There have been many characters over the years that have hurt rel's feelings or made her cry and I've had wonderful cathartic moments writing them out. Characters that have left her, crossed her, backstabbed her, talked about her. It's her history. You would be a stone if it didn't effect you in some way or inspire you to write about it. Yet, the players who've done the most damage to rel's undead heart are those I've formed a bond with OOC. Who can offline me when rel says something kookie about how much it made them laugh even though our characters don't talk anymore. Who are perhaps IRL facebook friends. Who I can go to as a writer to plan out a GREAT fight IC to be written in a safe not personal environment. Right now I'm thrilled that the characters within POE, Kenna and Rob and others just JUMPED into the open RP in the city with the characters within the hall of rogues. No questions. IC. LOVE IT. These characters are burning the shit out of each other and here we, as writers, can play. It's why I joined the game.
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Moirai
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IGN: Moirai :: Actions speak louder than words
Posts: 409
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Post by Moirai on Dec 3, 2009 14:31:51 GMT -8
I don't want to read all of this, however, it's very likely I'm as rude as Moirai. Especially when I'm in uniform. Sometimes we don't have the luxury to pass pleasantries.
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Post by Damiana Jones on Dec 3, 2009 14:34:42 GMT -8
No no no no. OOC. Between me and other players, I get the "You're too young to know...blah blah." IC wise, that's not something I'd get upset with. Because Uriah is pretty young and really doesn't know too much. Damiana really doesn't know anything. What she did learn was from vampire movies and reading books. Mmm...Tochtli isn't even vampire. Lol. It's only OOC that I get upset with. I try very hard to keep my OOC emotions out of my IC world. I usually get emotional only when I have to do a really sad RP with Uriah because....lets face it, who wants to have to do the angst some times when needed.
But you're absolutely right. There is -too much- crossing when it comes to RP. And I'm all for just pull the plug idea. Which is why I had a lot of respect for Claire when she D&B Kaelani. I know it hurt her because she put in a lot of time and effort with that character. But it's so nice to see her being able to RP and be okay. Instead always upset. When things go too bad for Uriah when I played him, I developed other stand alone characters as my outlet.
I've seen how bad it can get when all IC actions are usually fueled by OOC emotions. I love love Aaron to death. Love him to death. Boy always has my heart. But he was notorious for such things. So I've tried to watch how I go about things when I see how others interact.
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virgo_shelly
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..:: wHoRe ::..[C01:FF0066]
Posts: 52
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Post by virgo_shelly on Dec 3, 2009 16:05:34 GMT -8
Damari, is was and will always be allowed to do as she wishes, however, in retrospect if you had waited an hour to let the situation calm down then things would have gone much more smooth, in my opinion.
Usually, an hour, a single hour, can do a lot for an explosive situation and then shortly, fun can begin again. Even if it is bickering/arguing/trashing a char.
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seyda
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Posts: 844
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Post by seyda on Dec 3, 2009 16:10:59 GMT -8
There's a negative side. Character - character relationships sometimes are bad, and more than once, I have had to get away from the keyboard, read a book, do something else... We players ARE affected by what happens to our characters. I player once felt quite ashamed at something I had dragonet say, which was completely sound IC, but was heartless OOC. I felt bad, yet felt it necessary to have dragonet reply with his usual coldhearted demeanor. I hope you have forgiven me for that, Stephanie. Sometimes, I have dragonet say mean things to other characters, usually in a cold and detached way. Honestly, I'm glad you brought that situation up, because it's the first thing I thought about when I read this thread topic. The answer to your question is although I was a bit upset about the comment OOCly when it happened, to be perfectly honest, I was already have a serious situation going on OOCly when Jeannie passed away. For the two week period surrounding it, you could have said, "Steph you're a doodie-head," and I would have sobbed my face off. But OOCly, there is no forgiveness to give, because you have nothing to be forgiven for. ICly, Seyda remembers those words almost every time she and dragonet interact, and so it takes her extra long to 'warm up' at this point, so to speak. Fact of the matter is, the comment dragonet made bad timing? Absolutely. But, it was in character bad timing, and as such the angry and bitchy tirade came from Seyda. Bottom line is, we are playing characters that live in a not so nice world with not so nice characteristics. There are good, bad, ugly, inappropriate, and terrible minded CHARACTERS in the game. As a player, I have awareness of some people and their IRL problems (because people gossip in this place worse than five 80 year olds waiting for bingo to start). If, for example, I know, as a player, that someone has a mental illness, you will not see Seyda berating the character for being crazy, even if some of the comments being made make almost no sense which are probably secondary to the player's limitations. If I know someone was raped/assaulted/molested as a player, I will not have Seyda hit areas related to such. That, to me, is basic player to player respect. What is not basic player to player respect, in my opinion, is taking a character, having them act a certain way or say certain things, have the fallout not be what was planned in their head, and then scream OOC that they want it to stop. The others failure to do so is not disrespecting the player, because that player is acting petulant and as a result is actually the one disrespecting the entire process. They want to do X and they want a result of Y. When they do X and get a result of Z, they scream foul and turn it into an OOC respect issue. This is a RPG, not a book. If you want a situation in which you can determine the outcome your character faces in absolute terms, then you are in the wrong place. These people should give up on RPG and instead write a story, because that's all they really want. The beauty of RPG is the unexpected twists and turns that happen because you're playing with several others with different opinions and ideas of what direction they want their characters going. There have been several things that, as a player, I really didn't like seeing happen for Seyda. I did not like seeing her relationship with Wolfshadow dying; I did not like seeing the alliance with HoR fraying because I had all these ideas in my head of what that group could have done; I did not like watching Majica and Seyda's relationship dissolve....but you didn't see me screaming foul and trying to change things OOCly. I took the cards as they were dealt and I stayed true to my character, and let things lie as they needed to. But, in order to do that, you have to place your ego on a shelf and acknowledge that sometimes things just don't go your way. Too many players want their characters to be so perfect that they simply cannot accept things that go wrong and instantly brand the other character and their player as some sort of villain. But, flaws are what makes a character real, readable and likeable, and part of why I have no problem as a player using the circumstances handed to me and have my vampire completely fall apart. So yes, I do believe that a basic respect for other players is necessary. However, we live in a self-centric society where most interpret basic respect as them getting everything they want. People are simply selfish and bratty by nature, which is why I can count on two hands the number of players in this game that can extend a basic courtesy without demanding the best pieces of chicken in the bucket every time.
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Moons
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Posts: 863
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Post by Moons on Dec 3, 2009 16:14:34 GMT -8
A lot of people that I've seen don't really know the difference between IC and OOC; they can spout off the "right answer" but really, they don't have any clue at all. If something is upsetting another player, rather than say shit about the player, maybe if someone had a little compassion and asked about it, things would be better resolved. People have emotions, people who play these games do get emotions tied into characters and nobody could tell me otherwise, because if that were true then why would a character have to attack another specific character even when the other character's player is upset? Why couldn't the "Evil" character be evil to someone else for a little while?
No, it's just an excuse to be a bitch to someone else via an online allias while not having to take any responsibility for it because "It's IC."
How about asking the person who is upset about why they are upset? Maybe they have shit they are dealing with. Maybe they feel genuinely harrassed for whatever reason. You won't know unless you ask. And not asking is irresponsible.
Seriously, it's just a game, the people who play the game are SO much more important. I'm not saying that some people are not over-sensitive, but you have the option to just not RP with them, rather than hurt them, because anyone who feels the need to make another person feel like shit purely because they can and they don't feel there are consequences involved are less than trash in my book.
I'd rather be an "Oversensitive ninny" or whateve rthe current insult is, than be a raging bitch without a cause.
Now, I'm not saying I'm not guilty of hurting people on an OOC level, but I like to think I at least try to make them feel better after I know I've crossed a line.
There are lines, they have been crossed, and it just sickens me at times.
I know this post is going to get torn to shit. I know I didn't present my arguments well, and I should be dealing with this in a much more mature manner, but I really don't care at the minute. I'm ignoring this thread from this point on and simply HOPING that some people can learn to have some genuine care, maybe even a little compassion.
Take care. <3
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