seyda
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Post by seyda on Dec 3, 2009 16:38:28 GMT -8
A lot of people that I've seen don't really know the difference between IC and OOC; they can spout off the "right answer" but really, they don't have any clue at all. If something is upsetting another player, rather than say shit about the player, maybe if someone had a little compassion and asked about it, things would be better resolved. It is not the general player's responsibility to monitor every other player's moods and inability to keep in character issues IC. Because the entire point of separation is to have your characters doing what they do in a crafted world. I find it ironic that you start this paragraph ranting about people who don't have a clue about the difference between IC and OOC, but then blatantly show that you are one of the ones who don't. To be quite frank, I'd rather be playing a bitch in a fictional world with other fictional characters then to be a bitch to players OOC because they play bitches in a fictional world with other fictional characters and rendering my entire point moot in the process. Think about it. Because we're playing a game about blood sucking creatures, not playing guidance counselor. A lot of people play this game to fill some dead space in their time and to be able to distract themselves from their IRL issues. No one wants to substitute their RL crap for someone else's. Kinda defeats the purpose. Then they should be offline dealing with it. Then they need to click the X in the top right corner of the browser, and go do something else. Like Jenga or Monopoly. Or will they feel harassed when they pull out the wrong piece of wood or someone gets Boardwalk before them and says, "Yeah, take THAT!" No, it isn't. What is irresponsible is expecting hundreds of people to police someone's issues. Grow up, get some responsibility and handle their own crap. People know when they're overstressed and they know when their buttons are being pushed. Dear Player Community,
Police yourself, because we're not your moms or your dads standing ready to send you to your room to take a break when you shove all the pieces off the game board because you didn't get your way.
Love, StephanieYes, it's just a game. That's the entire point. There are a bunch of people who are here to PLAY A GAME. They aren't here to make friends. They're here to PLAY A GAME. Hopefully I don't have to repeat myself to make the point that there is a purpose we are here, and it's not to be buddy buddy with everyone else. And I feel that anyone who thinks that it's appropriate to guilt trip an entire community because one or two players are too immature to police their own emotions and actions needs to grow up and buy a clue. I also think that any person who finds it appropriate to take things that occur in a created and fictional setting and use it to insult and berate players in this game are less than trash. And I'd rather be a player who can discuss an issue like an adult then a player who stomps around like a 12 year old who lost their iPod and is pointing fingers. Grow up already. It's not your job to police them, either. Yes, there are lines that have been crossed when people have their characters do things, don't like the result, and then bitch and moan OOCly and accuse players of things that are simply untrue. We have genuine care and compassion. You need common sense and the ability to distinguish the character world from the player world. |
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Moons
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Post by Moons on Dec 3, 2009 16:48:04 GMT -8
>.>Way to get defensive over what "Should" have been dismissed as character actions given previous statements. Really, I love it when you show just how much you care.
I think this pretty-much proves my point. Thanks Steph.
Though seriously, all of that BS crap to reply to what I had to say, when a simple "Hey, how are you doing?" would have been so much easier and done so much more. You can make up whatever arguments you like, I've spoken the truth.
Compassion is cheap, it only takes a little love and a little humility, and it brings such great rewards. Being "right all the time" doesn't bring one anything but bitterness and a sad end. Oh well, I tried.
Okay. Now Imma go get drunk. Cheers!
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seyda
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Post by seyda on Dec 3, 2009 17:02:52 GMT -8
>.>Way to get defensive over what "Should" have been dismissed as character actions given previous statements. So, you post in an OOC section, in an OOC thread, with OOC insults, and I am supposed to dismiss it as character actions given previous statements? That doesn't even make logical sense, so if someone else can translate, I'd appreciate it. I am going to be perfectly 100% honest. I don't know you, man. I've spoken to you OOCly a handful of times in my life. I know more ABOUT you OOCly through Monica then I know about you firsthand. So, do I care about you as a human being? Just as much as I have basic human caring for any stranger I encounter on the street. But, I do not know you, and thus, I do not have any emotional caring for you at all. If something happened to you, I would have compassion, but it wouldn't hurt me. To think that I should and must have emotional caring for you for whatever reason and to imply that I'm a bad person because I don't have it just shows how completely immature and self-centric you are. And so I say again, grow up. You haven't made a point. You've presented gibberish. Can someone else please explain to me why his feelings are hurt because I responded to his points with counter points? Can someone explain to me why he feels that there was some grievous error because I didn't reply with "Hey, how are you doing?" to a posting full of insults and mistruths? If you honestly think that you can act like a jackass and have someone respond with anything resembling caring, then you're going to have a hell of a time in the real world. Give me something to show compassion for, and I'll show compassion for it. Getting butthurt OOC about something that happens IC is not a reason for compassion. And implying that I'm a bad person because I don't feel bad that someone cannot manage their emotions is ridiculous. Completely. Judging by the wording of this statement and the fact that I can't even make sense of half of it, I think you need less alcohol. |
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Beezil
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IC: Beezil | OOC: Emma
Posts: 123
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Post by Beezil on Dec 3, 2009 17:19:24 GMT -8
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Post by Jean DeVenn on Dec 3, 2009 17:21:07 GMT -8
I'll be honest here: unlike Puawai, I've got a certain emotional investment in JDV. Maybe it's just my nature, but I can't play a character for a significant number of years without just a little of him creeping into me, and vice versa. I don't think I'm a good enough RP'er to play a character who is totally alien in nature to me the player. So although I'm generally pretty mellow (IC and OOC), there have been times when people have said or done things IC which have affected my state of mind OOC. In one or two cases, I have even wondered if the player behind the enemy character was aiming for just that effect, although of course there's never any proof. This is all compounded by the fact that we are all, to a greater or lesser extent, keyboard warriors. I know that my personal sense of humour can be a little twisted, which can come over in a remarkably acid way for those who don't know me. So I work hard to control it, sometimes even with a degree of success  When things get too heated, I walk away. Simple, and it gives time for rationality to re-establish itself. As so many have said, "it's only a game", even if it doesn't always feel like it. But one thing I particularly enjoy is meeting the players OOC. It helps me to realise that there's a human behind the characters, and thus helps to reduce the likelihood that I'll let rip on the keyboard in an unfair way. Not to mention that meeting OOC means you can cook up some really GREAT plots over a drink in a way you could never do online (when you can't read the expressions & body language). Irrespective of what my character thinks of their characters and vice versa, there are some really great humans playing this game, and it's an honour to be able to call some of them friends on an OOC level. |
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asmia
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Post by asmia on Dec 3, 2009 17:26:53 GMT -8
As an avid gamer of multiple media for at over a decade... I'm going to offer my 2 cents here. I've been seeing this argument about crossing, ic/ooc emotional ties, metagaming, and all other topics that have to do with IC and OOC mixing as well as oil and water do.
I find that the more and more I play games in what has solidly become the digital era, I find that more and more people have stronger attachment to their 'characters'. See you call them characters, but I KNOW Asmia is a character. I see most treating their characters as online representations of their imaginary avatars. Ones that come with their online emotions, feelings, etc. Here's the problem. In a role playing game, it's not you. At least it's not supposed to be you.
I probably know even less of you out of character than Puwai does. I know some like Steph very well. Does it interfere with how I interact with any of you? Nope. As a matter of fact, I opt to not get involved in a social ooc conversation as I see that the majority of players these days, especially the younger ones who have grown up with instant messagers, email, and the internet FAR less capable of truly understanding the different between 'character' and 'online representation of yourself that isn't real'.
My character has flaws, feelings, reactions, a favorite color, history, heritage, etc. I have created her and STUCK to her and make sure that I REACT like she would when responding to in character role play situations.
I think the only way to fix this, which as we all know, this is all very fixable...is to create your character sheet. "What's a character sheet, Aliki?" Well don't worry, youngun's, I'll tell you. A character sheet is everything you know about your character, but not in story form.
Things to put on your character sheet:
* Name, Race, Country of Origin, human birth date, vampire turned date, sire
* Current clan, all other clans you've been in
* Relationship log (who've you've screwed, etc. Just pull out those black books for this one)
* Traits - Hair color, eye color, what do you look like?
* Have you given yourself special powers? Can you shape shift, etc?
* Fears and negative traits? Are you afraid of the dark? Water? Temper? Demure?
You get the idea - its the basic stuff about your CHARACTER. Any here's the trick until you learn your lesson (it's hard sometimes, we all will cut you slack if you say your sorry or at least try to improve separating). The trick is to pull out your character sheet or open your MyCharacterAsmia.doc and look at it every time you want to get your knickers in a wad. Check to see if your out of character reaction matches your character and his/her previous actions/reactions. Remember that your interactions with your fellow player characters may help you develop additonal traits. Hell, I know you'll be adding to your 'Who you fucked and bound to' lists or else Asmia wouldn't have a gazillion weddings to go to each year. Just stick to that page and you'll be fine.
Ok, maybe more than 2 cents.
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Beezil
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IC: Beezil | OOC: Emma
Posts: 123
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Post by Beezil on Dec 3, 2009 17:35:17 GMT -8
You know Jean-human, I think that you bring up a great aspect of the game, the positive side of OOC relationships. I really think that is a rare thing to find here. If it were up to me, there would be no OOC side to RBC - I realize I take part in the OOC section as much as anyone else - but that's just what I would do if I could control things. It takes away from the fantasy, the spontaneity, and the overall thrill of the game, at least for me. Before I learned to separate OOC from IC, I too was a jerk, running off at the mouth at the slightest offensive thing said to me. I took everything personally. I used to get SO mad at this game, and the players in it. To be fair though, I do think a lot of players justify their blatant attacks and harassments of other characters by saying it was all IC fun. I have learned to separate myself from Beezil though, and in doing so, I have become emotionally detached from her. I have been attacked OOC by other players as well, based on actions Beezil took in the game, which I find rather disturbing. So... To add a different side to what I said earlier about RBC's player base... I guess some of the players here can be just as bad as the ones in WoW. Lol
It's so important (imo) to separate... that is what gets us in trouble. It ruins the game, truly, when someone decides to attack or insult a character based on OOC issues or vice versa. And another thing I really think is creepy, people who date online and decide their characters need to have a relationship as well... That could just be my own personal opinion, but I find it disturbing.
Compassion is cheap, to agree with Josh. I think everyone could stand to show just a tad bit more when they log on.
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Damari
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Post by Damari on Dec 3, 2009 19:03:22 GMT -8
Well, I certainly don’t pretend to be all kindness and light. I’ve met Puawai resistance because of Damari and I’ve addressed it at the time it concerned me but for the most part I’m okay with their misconception. It probably shocks people how nice I am in person but so few have had the opportunity to meet me (or talk to me) that their perception either way is skewed quite considerably by their opinion of the character.
Or probably by my prudery. I’ve got a streak a mile wide.
Someone did point out I have a tenacious pain in the ass need to hammer away at my particular point until they want to poke their own eyeballs out. I don’t deny it, because it’s true.
I try very hard to be honest, conscious of people’s feelings but also pretty straight up. I’m not going to be purposely hurtful to anyone but I’m also not going to compromise my sense of right because someone else has a different perception of it. I’ll just state clearly what I believe, leave it out there and let that person make their own decision.
People have different ways of dealing with issues, in this game and beyond and just knowing how someone looks at something goes a long to knowing how you will interact with them in the game.
In the end you take responsibility for your own actions and reactions. I have been fine with mine to date. I have apologised where I felt it required it, stood my ground too. For me, it’s enough.
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Dec 3, 2009 19:06:48 GMT -8
Compassion is a good thing. Compassion for a player that is having heavy emotional issues over in game things. Okay. And what about compassion for the folks that get accused of being trashy dicks out of character. When you call someone names oocly and brand them because you don't like how they write for their character....where's your compassion then? Where's your understanding then? Where's your need to 'reach out' to another player and TRY to get to know them before you judge them over dickish fictional writing? When you're shit talking someone behind closed doors because you don't like what their character is doing....where's all that understanding and willingness then?
It's gone. That's where it is at. Because it's easier to call a writer here an asshole because their character is an asshole than it is to be......understanding and compassionate or even attempting to.
M
*you being general and not specific*
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Post by Damiana Jones on Dec 3, 2009 19:09:52 GMT -8
It's a bit sad to see that what we were discussing be played on in the thread itself. ._.
I've had that happen actually, Emma. When I was young and pretty stupid when I first got on here. I was fifteen and I started dating one of the guys I met on RB for about eight months. Our vampires were together. Blah. Blah. I really had to learn not to cross IC and OOC the hard way. He ended up leaving RB. And then like two or three months later, we broke up. It was a terrible break up. But it really taught me when I got back to the full swing of things on RB, what's appropriate for me as a player. And what's appropriate for me IC wise. I had to make a rule for myself to keep myself sane.
I had a one year rule. Where I have to have talked to the person for about a year online before our friends was okay outside of RB. And then, I have the no more online dating rule. The only rule I broke was the..one year rule. And I mean, I don't talk to the person anymore. As dorky as it sounds, I miss them. But it was about to lead into breaking the no more online dating rule.
And the bad thing about it was how our relationship effected out IC relationship to the point Uriah doesn't even talk to his character anymore. Which really sucks because it was great guiding relationship. So..I really understand how not putting boundaries can really ruin things. >.> Really sucks.
I mean...I can sit and wish that people show more compassion. But I know there are going to be those individuals who feel they have the right to be a bitch and bitch on everyone else when they feel defensive about certain things. But instead of wasting a breath, which I know I do at times, best thing to do is simply ignore them. Or simply don't rp with them anymore. Some people feel like they have the right to act the way they do in the game. So...don't play with them. Maybe they'll think twice. If they don't, then they'll just think they're right and go about their business.
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rel
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byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
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Post by rel on Dec 3, 2009 19:53:51 GMT -8
Again I think the most important thing to remember is what would your character think, not what YOU think. I'm an actor, right? Some of you know this. I've played the devil who watched a character get raped while smiling because my plan worked. Do I like rape? Of course not. But I wouldn't be doing my job if I, as the actor, pontificated the ramifications of what rape means...my job was to relish in the act because I was showing the 'boyfriend' of the character how he fucked up. I've also played assassins, whores, Christians, mothers, liars, crazies, and everything else under the sun. I'm not an assassin, whore, Christian, mother, liar, and hopefully not a crazy. I'm just me, an actor, who friggin loves diving in head first and exploring head first every aspect that character has.
This is the same thing. Rel is a character but instead of acting her on the stage I'm living her through my writing. She's a vampire, a thief, a fiancee stealer, a seductress, a zombie hater, and adores dry wit. She looks for idiocy in other characters to exploit it, drinks like a fish, smokes, and has no problem stealing out of others homes. She's a character, she's sometimes a bitch, but mostly she's just having as much fun as she can at every given moment. She kills, she hurts, she cries, she loves, she laughs, she mourns, she shows compassion, she shows spite, she's over five years of experiences that tell her story each and every day. She's been used, abused, loved, hated, laughed at, and adored. It's live rp or crafted behind the scenes but it's all fiction.
This talk about compassion IRL isn't relevant to IC. That isn't to say it's not important. It is. I've known players who have died, been hurt, gotten divorced, lost love, lost jobs, internet, had babies, and I can separate and be there. But, if our characters mix IC it has nothing to do with IRL. If we're at war IC and you go away because of a IRL issue of course OOC I get it, I have compassion, and I wait, but IC if you move you're hit. It's not personal, it's rel reacting ONLY to the given circumstances IC. You post something OOC and then go deal with it. That's the beauty of this type of game. Time always is liquid. You can have your character go into the earth then return, or take a trip away, or just fall into shadows, and we'll all be here upon your return no questions asked.
I hate ooc sections for this reason. Yes I use them sporadically, but I think that the gray area blurs much more when you take me as the player and think that I'm rel the character. I mean...SUREEEE I like thing shiny and yes all zombies should be destroyed, but I don't steal and I can't say that I actually own a flame thrower...
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Damia
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Posts: 186
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Post by Damia on Dec 4, 2009 0:20:28 GMT -8
Once more I find a thread where I think technically everybody is right.
On one hand, you the player are playing a character that is fictional and really some of the nonsense people get worked up over (including myself) is stupid. If people would remember that ic=ic only and not just "omg it has to be this player personally attacking me" I think things would go better.
On the other hand, I think everybody should have a general respect of others. That is what makes a good player community. Now Im not saying that for instance that say Sedya is slapping someone for being a moron, that ooc stephanie should yank her back and muzzle her, because someone else ooc wise is having a hard time in life (and really who isn't right now). Because Sedya the character does that all the time. Constantly. So its not personal to that person. Or so I have seen.
But. at the same time, I don't think we as players can dismiss that there are times we go over the line. I've done it, others have done it, and Im sure it will happen forever. At times, I've had this from both sides. In rbc, I tend to play my good charrie, who usually never treads that line. But in abyss, I play evil bitch charrie who just doesn't give a fuck and will tell you what she thinks in a heartbeat. And I have had people who assume because I play that way that ooc Im a heartless bitch who constantly attacks others. Fun times that. Hell I have even been accused of stalking someones characters just to annoy them. Was I? No. They just happened to take some of my statements to personally ooc. And didn't realize that a good portion of those comments were directed at others. But in an ooc forum, they ranted about it and I got a chance (for once since most the talk is usually never brought to me) to tell them straight up, it was ic only and not personal. I try very hard not to go over that line of constantly haranguing others, but even I at times fail. If a character mine says something ic, its not meant by me ooc. Because usually if I have a prob ooc with someone, they will either have me telling them face to face (as ooc I tend to be blunt beyond all means), and I do not involve my characters with that.
I think the murky area in this is that some players I have come across, we simply don't mix well. And forever after instead of assuming I might be playing said charrie the way I made them, they then assume that certain comments are made at them ooc. And that from what I have seen in rbc is a big problem. Certain players just do not mix, and won't. Nothing to be done about it. I think though in most cases fault is on both sides. Again on one hand, ic is ic. Period. If my character goes to yours and says "You suck" That to me is ic. Period. But on that other hand, is the fact that if I say "You suck", any time that charrie interacts with your charrie, before going out of my way to make sure any thread or area your charrie is in, I say this, then to me that does cross a line.
Your character is allowed to have all the bias, judgement and whatever other feelings they want. Because it is in character. But when you the player make a point to follow them thread to thread, that to me is when it gets murky and those are the lines I try very hard not to cross. In fact because I have been on the opposite side of being accused of this, I tend to shy away from even dealing with their carries, simply because I know that they will take it to personally and then I have to go through round 50 of "omg that player is just being a horrible person" screeching.
Anyways >> Excuse the rambling. But in the end, I think some people need to learn how to shut a browser window, and some people need to perhaps consider common courtesy in some situations.
And all the you's in this were general lol
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Damari
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Post by Damari on Dec 4, 2009 15:19:00 GMT -8
Damari, is was and will always be allowed to do as she wishes, however, in retrospect if you had waited an hour to let the situation calm down then things would have gone much more smooth, in my opinion. Usually, an hour, a single hour, can do a lot for an explosive situation and then shortly, fun can begin again. Even if it is bickering/arguing/trashing a char. I didn't know Monica was having a problem. Not until she said so in a thread AFTER all the threads Damari had created were moved and locked. I live in the Southern Hemisphere, I just wasn't around for what was going on. I was supposed to have ESP in this situation? I am not here to babysit people's emotions or to ensure other people are handling the emotional toll their characters create for them. I know the emotional toll of my own character, what happens to her and even the emotional one it takes to constantly answer to these ooc moral judgments. I deal with that because it is MY OWN RESPONSIBILITY to do so. I do not ask you Virgo_Shelly (human) to take on the responsibility to ensure I feel okay about you creating a new thread accusing me of being uncaring, unsympathetic and discourteous. I don't feel it is my moral obligation to ensure the emotional stability of the players of this game. I will ensure that I am not purposely hurtful, I will ensure, to the best of my ability that I keep the lines of ooc/ic clear of ambiguity and the rest is personal choice to the other players who play. Make good choices for yourself. Make the right choices for what you know YOU can handle and then stick to those. But do not obligate others to take on your emotional baggage because you can't handle it. To the players of this game whom I don't know personally or talked to ooc:I am a faceless stranger on the other side of the world. I am nothing to you, I do not know you, do not have any information about you and have no attachment to your sense of self. I have empathy for you if you reveal things about yourself that require empathy but it is impersonal and distanced. I will not purposely attempt to hurt you or your feelings and I will respond to you if you ask me something and I will be as courteous as I am being treated in return. I am polite, caring and have human failings just like you. But I don't know you and might never know you. I will not pretend to be something I am not just to spare your feelings but I will also try very hard not to be purposely mean. Know that about me. I will play the game fairly and I will talk to you considerately, if consideration is allowed. One day we might get to know one another better, if situation and circumstance allows. Until then however. I am what I have stated. Make the best decision for your player based on that. Cause there is no other way for me to make it any clearer. Puawai |
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rel
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byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
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Post by rel on Dec 4, 2009 17:03:30 GMT -8
That should be on a plaque...albeit a very large plaque but...um...carry on  |
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Boomerangele
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Post by Boomerangele on Dec 5, 2009 8:43:53 GMT -8
Use my real name please this is ooc. pffft. That's silly. Honestly it's a trivial silly thing to get on a soapbox about. If we're discussing GAME things then calling things in a debate forum with character names isn't anything other than using clarity to make a point. The entire thing reeks of being overly sensitive and running OOC when things get too rough IC. It is usually the last resort of someone losing an argument. Makes me laugh like hell at their expense. |
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When things get too heated, I walk away. Simple, and it gives time for rationality to re-establish itself. As so many have said, "it's only a game", even if it doesn't always feel like it.
