The Patchwork Versus L'In

[hairbear]

Oh please Moons, your disdain is rather cute. I could just imagine you flipping your hair when you typed that.

[black_dragonet]

Oct 3, 2009 9:36:57 GMT -8 hairbear said:

Inasmuch as your words of wisdom Black_dragonet, when you start spilling your blood on the streets of Raven Black City, I will consider your thoughts about war.

I shall start with that...
I am anything, but neutral, even though I AM neutral with regard to this conflict. I have actually probably more friends in L'inconnu than in the other side.
I shall not boast what I did on a battlefield. I prefer to let my honourable enemies do that.
Go ask the Dawns, or other people I fought during the Dawn War, I think there was PoE, to which Lyrene belonged for instance. Ask the people from Sypheronias, whom I got to fight during a lengthy war.
When and if they say I do not spill my blood on the city streets when needed, then I will let you "blatantly discount my ramblings on war".

I probably have lost more blood in battle than you have. It's not important. My blood does not belong to me, it is to be spilled in defense of my clan and its honour.

To be more topical, I have a different view on the Dumont Family, and the TMR clan.
L'inconnu and the Dumonts have been at each other's throat for a while, so their "preemptive attacking" and the use of a spy can be understood.
I find spying distateful, though not as much as hiring the splinters.

There is another topic about what wins a war. Read it. Even though my words are worthless, you might fins some words of wisdom there...

TMR involvement can be seen as bullying. It is mine thought that they did not have good and sound reason to join, except to get cheap glory. In Moons or Ace's shoes, I would have preferred going alone, but that's because I am who I am, and I think that they were wise to not refuse any help that was offered. That's what alliances are for.
Now tell me why Ferry didn't come to L'inconnu's help, when L'inconnu helped them during their last war?
Either L'inconnu leaders sucked big time when they negotiated their involvement with Ferry, or Ferry has been chicken to not come help their ally.
You know, I can trace L'inconnu's likely defeat to that point: when they spent their resources to help Ferry, and did not get anything in return, be it coins or a promise of help.
Fact is, L'inconnu was not ready for this fight, not now. THAT is the leadership's responsibility to make sure everyone's in fighting shape, everytime.

L'inconnu "fought brilliantly in a legitimate war"? They prove they had very brilliant fighters, as well as a limited fund supply, since they had to withdraw from the war when they got broke. Besides, this "legitimate" war was a schoolyard tantrum(or pissing contest) between a couple of Ferry whose behaviour was nothing save childish and a couple of other people when Ferry beat their chests so loud that they pointed and laughed at them.
Speak about legitimate fights!

Oct 3, 2009 9:36:57 GMT -8 hairbear said:

Hiring the SoD is the quickest way to knock out the succour head. It was tactically sound, they just didn't have enough coin to hold out before being zero'd.

Hiring the Splinters is just plainly admittance one is too chickenshit and weak to do the job by themselves. It is as dishonourable, if not more than spying.
Admitting or boasting it is just gross.

[Jada]

*Applauds behind her screen before she types* Oh, well said, Moons. -Very- well said. *rolls her eyes*

On behalf of L'inconnu:

We have not ever planned, plotted, edged toward or schemed any offensive assault, nor have we in any other way provoked an attack from the Dumont family line. We -have-, however, had numerous reports, some confirmed then, and all of them confirmed now, obviously, of such an attack being plotted against us. As stated elsewhere, the Dumont line and this assault means very little to us in general, but we will fight back when attacked. We will not, however, allow this spin-fest to continue without answer.

Kaelani's attempt at "spying" as you call it, was little more than an information-gathering Fail. If her inept attempts boosted your family's morale, well then, more power to you. Killing her was our retaliation and punishment for broken trust. It has been said several times now that this was an appropriate response, as we felt it was from the start. Spying happens, but that does not mean we take it lightly when one is caught.

Although we're still wondering where you found these supposed "battle plans"...Hm. Right.

Anyhoo!

As for our warriors. It is good form to congratulate one another on a job well-done and to be respectful to one another. All of our fallen have been treated with respect and given well-wishes from enemies, friends, clanmates and the public alike - for the most part. For that, we say thank you. However, your one-sided views of our fighting are not only rather skewered, but it seems like someone is whining a bit that he hasn't been given enough attention. *winks* Surely that can be remedied.

L'inconnu's combative warriors have fought consistently, and hard, each night. But, again (seriously, does this need to be spoon fed to you?) we aren't all too concerned with giving this much more effort than that. When we are engaged in a live battle, we fight. As has been evidenced by the "Patchworks'" dropping blood levels, and with our own.

Moving on...

We also find it rather amusing that you in one breath say we must be broke, and in another speak of our contract with the Splinters. In addition, you call into question that some of our members knew about the contract and others did not. Well. To address the latter first - does your leadership share all of its planning with the rest of the family? No? Does any clan or bloodline do this? Because if you do...get me a spy in there! Oh wait...we don't need one. Your family hemorrhages information.

Of the former: We hired the splinters to help mop up some of the mess rather than dirtying our own hands. Boy, you Dumonts and friends sure do like to fight dirty. What was that part about a rather publicly outspoken "neutral" acting as a succour point for her little man again? Riiight. How's that working out for you, Boomer? That neutrality thing?

Another thing we would like to mention here, just as an aside - it was clear in a previous post that you, Moons, wanted to keep the numbers "mysterious," correct? Either Kaelani messed up (again) or you simply can't count. In other words, that number may be a little...off. Please do not interpret that as us being upset you stated the numbers, but jeebus, man. At least get it right.

Well. For now, we've stated our piece and hope some of your questions and thoughts have been addressed. As you said, Moons...the truth comes out in the end. I'm sure that will be the case here, as well. Comments and opinions from the public are welcome, but our actions in prior battles have been addressed before and picked apart then, and we find the re-hash and rather uninformed opinions of those battles to be pointless. That was war - we were called upon for assistance, and we gave what we gave. This, however...well, you can call it whatever you like, but us? We will continue to yawn and swat at the flies as we see fit.

Thank you.

[Moons]

Thank-you, once more black_dragonet for remaining on topic. Your concessions to both sides of this war are, as always, enlightening.

By way of furthering the discussion, a lot of factors were still up in the air when we initially started the war, and so the help from our allies was more than well recieved. I think that, if we were more sure as to our own security, we would have requested that TMR and the others sit out, but our choice was made largely on strategic advantage, moreso than anything else.

And, we share the same views on the use of the SoD. I know that the Dumont family has more than enough to se a contract completed on each of the L'In triumvirate, as well as many if not all of the clan members. However, that avenue was simply out of the question.

Edit to add that I submitted before I saw Jada's post. I will add another post in a bit once I've read through. Very happy to see L'In getting involved in the debate.

[Miranda Dawn]

Oct 3, 2009 13:56:40 GMT -8 black_dragonet said:

Oct 3, 2009 9:36:57 GMT -8 hairbear said:

Inasmuch as your words of wisdom Black_dragonet, when you start spilling your blood on the streets of Raven Black City, I will consider your thoughts about war.

Go ask the Dawns, or other people I fought during the Dawn War, I think there was PoE, to which Lyrene belonged for instance.

Yes HB, black_dragonet does fight....and he has a pretty good HW tossing arm too. Take it from one he has bathed <me>

The first time I met black_dragonet was during another war I was in way back in 2006, I even mentioned him in my diary, though at the time I thought "he" was a "she". Hell, with all that HW in my eyes all I could see was a blurr, and if memory serves me correctly I was also concerned about my hair. HW tends to dry out the ends

And of course I had the honor again last year in the war he mentions above.

I can also say he does bleed well, nice big puddles in fact

Oh, black_dragonet just for the record, Lyrene was in The Empty Spiral at that time, they were one of our allies.

OK Carry on

[Andre]

Oct 3, 2009 13:56:40 GMT -8 black_dragonet said:

Hiring the Splinters is just plainly admittance one is too chickenshit and weak to do the job by themselves. It is as dishonourable, if not more than spying.

You wound me, sir.

[hairbear]

Thank you for the information Miranda. My apologies to you, Black_dragonet. It was presumptuous of me to discount your war experience based on your blood points. I am not perfect nor have I ever claimed to be. I make many mistakes but I do live by a code and I offer my apologies.

I must say you never cease to frustrate me. There are times I find you level headed and well spoken, and there are times like these I find you to be .... well let's not go there.

Before you go off on another diatribe, please know that I have talked with several people before I said a word. What Moons says here is like a nice retouched photo. All of the ugliness and blemishes skillfully removed.

Moons, you tend to skim across the points I make that you dislike so let me throw one more out there for you. I think that someone brainstormed this war up in the Dumont family and I have a pretty good idea who.

The L'inconnu did fight valiantly in the last war. I believe that Ace Inc. is trying to steal their hard earned prestige. The truth always comes out and this is not the exception.

I am glad that Jada clarified several things with her commentary.

Spying is such a touchy subject for me. I find it honorable if you are already attached to a family/clan. To better your family shows loyalty but to do as Kaelani did, betray your friends to gain influence with Ace, is repugnant.

The splinters have there uses. If someone need more and quicker firing power to focus on one or two vampires, I can see their usefulness. To use them as a cloak.... well that is another story. I prefer to fight my own battles.

There is nothing pretty or glamorous about war. It is ugly, it is dirty and it can be vile. It brings out the best in some and the worst in others.

Boomer Boomer Boomer.... always so pious with the neutrality. Not so neutral are we dear? Why am I not surprised?

[Master Dracula]

Oct 3, 2009 14:05:39 GMT -8 Jada said:

*Applauds behind her screen before she types* Oh, well said, Moons. -Very- well said. *rolls her eyes*

On behalf of L'inconnu:

We have not ever planned, plotted, edged toward or schemed any offensive assault, nor have we in any other way provoked an attack from the Dumont family line. We -have-, however, had numerous reports, some confirmed then, and all of them confirmed now, obviously, of such an attack being plotted against us. As stated elsewhere, the Dumont line and this assault means very little to us in general, but we will fight back when attacked. We will not, however, allow this spin-fest to continue without answer.

Kaelani's attempt at "spying" as you call it, was little more than an information-gathering Fail. If her inept attempts boosted your family's morale, well then, more power to you. Killing her was our retaliation and punishment for broken trust. It has been said several times now that this was an appropriate response, as we felt it was from the start. Spying happens, but that does not mean we take it lightly when one is caught.

Although we're still wondering where you found these supposed "battle plans"...Hm. Right.

Anyhoo!

As for our warriors. It is good form to congratulate one another on a job well-done and to be respectful to one another. All of our fallen have been treated with respect and given well-wishes from enemies, friends, clanmates and the public alike - for the most part. For that, we say thank you. However, your one-sided views of our fighting are not only rather skewered, but it seems like someone is whining a bit that he hasn't been given enough attention. *winks* Surely that can be remedied.

L'inconnu's combative warriors have fought consistently, and hard, each night. But, again (seriously, does this need to be spoon fed to you?) we aren't all too concerned with giving this much more effort than that. When we are engaged in a live battle, we fight. As has been evidenced by the "Patchworks'" dropping blood levels, and with our own.

Moving on...

We also find it rather amusing that you in one breath say we must be broke, and in another speak of our contract with the Splinters. In addition, you call into question that some of our members knew about the contract and others did not. Well. To address the latter first - does your leadership share all of its planning with the rest of the family? No? Does any clan or bloodline do this? Because if you do...get me a spy in there! Oh wait...we don't need one. Your family hemorrhages information.

Of the former: We hired the splinters to help mop up some of the mess rather than dirtying our own hands. Boy, you Dumonts and friends sure do like to fight dirty. What was that part about a rather publicly outspoken "neutral" acting as a succour point for her little man again? Riiight. How's that working out for you, Boomer? That neutrality thing?

Another thing we would like to mention here, just as an aside - it was clear in a previous post that you, Moons, wanted to keep the numbers "mysterious," correct? Either Kaelani messed up (again) or you simply can't count. In other words, that number may be a little...off. Please do not interpret that as us being upset you stated the numbers, but jeebus, man. At least get it right.

Well. For now, we've stated our piece and hope some of your questions and thoughts have been addressed. As you said, Moons...the truth comes out in the end. I'm sure that will be the case here, as well. Comments and opinions from the public are welcome, but our actions in prior battles have been addressed before and picked apart then, and we find the re-hash and rather uninformed opinions of those battles to be pointless. That was war - we were called upon for assistance, and we gave what we gave. This, however...well, you can call it whatever you like, but us? We will continue to yawn and swat at the flies as we see fit.

Thank you.

The vampire Jada has drunk 8682 pints of blood.
(Lost In Shadow)

-> See ya when you decide to step out of shadows

[Jada]

Is that the best you've got, Ducky?

*blinks a few times*

Hope that helps...

[Master Dracula]

I ain't going to hire splinters for you now, little girl. Am I?

[Andre]

Aw, shucks.

[Damari]

I'd hire the Splinters but I'm too miserly with my coin. They serve a purpose and why do the dirty work if you can get someone else to do it.

And what is wrong with spying black_dragonet? You're precious information networks wouldn't work without people willing to take that bullet and subvert another's intelligence network so clan leaders could do their job in an informed manner.

Good luck all in the fight. Die bravely. *grin* Yes, I'm being nice. I'm trying it out to see how it feels.

[black_dragonet]

Oct 3, 2009 14:36:52 GMT -8 Miranda Dawn said:

Yes HB, black_dragonet does fight....and he has a pretty good HW tossing arm too. Take it from one he has bathed <me>

The first time I met black_dragonet was during another war I was in way back in 2006, I even mentioned him in my diary, though at the time I thought "he" was a "she". Hell, with all that HW in my eyes all I could see was a blurr, and if memory serves me correctly I was also concerned about my hair. HW tends to dry out the ends

And of course I had the honor again last year in the war he mentions above.

I can also say he does bleed well, nice big puddles in fact

Oh, black_dragonet just for the record, Lyrene was in The Empty Spiral at that time, they were one of our allies.

OK Carry on

*Bows*
I had forgotten about that first one...
I was in SIE back then, if I recall correctly.
You give as much as you get, if I recall correctly, and with interest... Being a fatty, I certainly bled your money's worth. That was good fighting.

Regarding Lyrene, I stand corrected. I am not really good at following clan affiliations. I remember her though, because, like you, she belongs to the « honoured enemy » category. People I leart to love, even though or maybe because I fought against them

Hairbear, I thank you, and I accept those.
End of the "good ol' time" derailing. Thank you Miranda.


L'inconnu did clearly fight valiantly during the previous war, and that's absolute truth. Tactically, they are and were awesome.
What I question is the ability, carefulness, and advance planning of their leaders.

Had they been better prepared and funded, I have few doubts which side would win. However, this did not happen, and already two of their leaders are down.

I don't want to dig on the reasons for this fight. There has to be a point-of-view issue, and honestly, it does not smell very good.
I have notices that there are differences between the reasons given in the declaration of war, and the ones stated in Moons speech.

Spying and paying the splinters are in the same drawer: the one I shall never open, even if I have to die for it. I understand both can be useful. To me they are just plain dishonourable ways to do things.
I find the situation to be quite balanced, with regard to these aspects: They spied, you used the splinters.

I only try to assess the purely military, as in strategical/tactical situation. The real reasons of this I'll not speak about, since I do not know them.
They chose the time, which gives them and advantage.
They got another advantage from their manageing to find allies.
To me L'inconnu's inability to raise allies is a central factor in this situation, and I cannot help wonder af Ferry's absence of involvement. I don't know if it's because Ferry/L'inconnu disbanded the alliance or because Ferry refused to get involved, but in both cases, I find it was inconsiderate from L'inconnu's leadership to leave their clan without allies like that.
As a clan leader, I'd never involve myself in a war, eating most of my resources, and precious blood, to end up all alone and broke.
No matter how good the fighters, they'll be in a great disadvantage in the next war.
By fighting with allies, the Dumont get a smaller share of glory, but I suspect that the real aim of the Dumont is not glory and shortlived fame. It probably is to crush Clan L'inconnu, in order to get at its leaders. By harming the clan members, they put a crude light on its leadership's mistakes.
That goal I think they may very well reach.

However good their warriors can be, they lack the money and blood level to beat a larger group of fighters unless they find allies. Since two our of three leaders are down, I quite fail to see how they could negotiate an alliance right now.
The patchwork alliance's strategic planning has clearly been better than L'inconnu's.

I agree with a large part of what Moons says, a large part of what Jada and you say.
The parts where you disagree I feel to be about the reasons and motive for the war, as well as the stuff that's collateral to the war. Were I involved, I would not see them as collateral, but I am focusing on the strategical aspects of the war.

The coinage and inventory that clans require before a vampire is deemed strong enough to be a warrior are varying with the clans. If that level is set too low then a clan might think it has more warriors than if that same clan had set the lever higher, thus making the leadership believe they have more ready fighters than they actually have.
Capadocious "warriors" are a joke whose inventory doesn't last a week, let alone two wars.
L'inconnu fighters did not all have enough to sustain a war longe than two weeks.
What I feel to be a good inventory allows to fight for over one month.
If L'inconnu's leadership had felt the same I do, they would not have thought they were ready when the Ferry thing started, would not have involved themselves, and would likely crush the patchwork alliance.
If...

I think there's a lesson to be got for leaders of smaller clans, and of one big one, but he lives in an alternate reality, so he cannot hear me *smiles*

[Moons]

Oct 3, 2009 14:05:39 GMT -8 Jada said:

*Applauds behind her screen before she types* Oh, well said, Moons. -Very- well said. *rolls her eyes*

On behalf of L'inconnu:

We have not ever planned, plotted, edged toward or schemed any offensive assault, nor have we in any other way provoked an attack from the Dumont family line. We -have-, however, had numerous reports, some confirmed then, and all of them confirmed now, obviously, of such an attack being plotted against us. As stated elsewhere, the Dumont line and this assault means very little to us in general, but we will fight back when attacked. We will not, however, allow this spin-fest to continue without answer.

Kaelani's attempt at "spying" as you call it, was little more than an information-gathering Fail. If her inept attempts boosted your family's morale, well then, more power to you. Killing her was our retaliation and punishment for broken trust. It has been said several times now that this was an appropriate response, as we felt it was from the start. Spying happens, but that does not mean we take it lightly when one is caught.

Although we're still wondering where you found these supposed "battle plans"...Hm. Right.

Anyhoo!

As for our warriors. It is good form to congratulate one another on a job well-done and to be respectful to one another. All of our fallen have been treated with respect and given well-wishes from enemies, friends, clanmates and the public alike - for the most part. For that, we say thank you. However, your one-sided views of our fighting are not only rather skewered, but it seems like someone is whining a bit that he hasn't been given enough attention. *winks* Surely that can be remedied.

L'inconnu's combative warriors have fought consistently, and hard, each night. But, again (seriously, does this need to be spoon fed to you?) we aren't all too concerned with giving this much more effort than that. When we are engaged in a live battle, we fight. As has been evidenced by the "Patchworks'" dropping blood levels, and with our own.

Moving on...

We also find it rather amusing that you in one breath say we must be broke, and in another speak of our contract with the Splinters. In addition, you call into question that some of our members knew about the contract and others did not. Well. To address the latter first - does your leadership share all of its planning with the rest of the family? No? Does any clan or bloodline do this? Because if you do...get me a spy in there! Oh wait...we don't need one. Your family hemorrhages information.

Of the former: We hired the splinters to help mop up some of the mess rather than dirtying our own hands. Boy, you Dumonts and friends sure do like to fight dirty. What was that part about a rather publicly outspoken "neutral" acting as a succour point for her little man again? Riiight. How's that working out for you, Boomer? That neutrality thing?

Another thing we would like to mention here, just as an aside - it was clear in a previous post that you, Moons, wanted to keep the numbers "mysterious," correct? Either Kaelani messed up (again) or you simply can't count. In other words, that number may be a little...off. Please do not interpret that as us being upset you stated the numbers, but jeebus, man. At least get it right.

Well. For now, we've stated our piece and hope some of your questions and thoughts have been addressed. As you said, Moons...the truth comes out in the end. I'm sure that will be the case here, as well. Comments and opinions from the public are welcome, but our actions in prior battles have been addressed before and picked apart then, and we find the re-hash and rather uninformed opinions of those battles to be pointless. That was war - we were called upon for assistance, and we gave what we gave. This, however...well, you can call it whatever you like, but us? We will continue to yawn and swat at the flies as we see fit.

Thank you.

Thank-you, Jada for your comments regarding L'In, it is always good to see the view from the other side, even though I do not agree really with any of what's been said. I will leave you and your clan to hanlde your public relations.

With both sides adequately covered, I believe that we can get back to the debate, but more importantly, back to the war. I'd also like to thank everyone who has made comments thus far, they have been very helpful.

[Toki]

black_dragonet,

In the words of someone very wise and very good at what he does "Our ways are not your ways."