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Post by Dr. Nash Fang on Nov 25, 2008 16:17:11 GMT -8
Dear Dr. Fang,
During recent events, I noticed something that I've seen happen before, and I became curious about the reasons behind it because I never saw the logic in it.
Pire "A" is being zeroed for some reason, instead of going down by those enemies and/or just those who want him dead, he asks his friends and close family to kill him instead.
The only logic I see in this is that he wishes it to end quickly, otherwise, he's asking those closest to use their hard earned coins against someone they love instead of those he'd probably rather see spend the coin.
Can you offer any insight into the point behind this?
~Perplexed
Dear Perplexed:
Ending it quickly is indeed one of the reasons this is done. Sometimes, attackers do seem to take forever to finish the final blows.
However, in my experience, the reason a final hit by loved ones started happening was to “steal” the kill from the victim’s enemies. If a loved one took the final shot, then the enemies couldn’t claim it. Personally, I think that this rational is flawed. After all, Vampire A’s bloodline/family/friends/clanmates don’t usually want to zero Vampire A. So, while someone close to Vampire A may land the final blow, the zeroing wouldn’t have happened if the enemies hadn’t attacked Vampire A in the first place.
Now, there are certainly those who would disagree with me, and I’m sure we’ll hear from them. I do hope this answers your question.
Sincerely,
Dr. Nash Fang
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Tifereth
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Post by Tifereth on Nov 25, 2008 16:32:22 GMT -8
I personally don't care as long as the target's dead. As in for myself, Dr. Nash, I have never asked a loved one to spend their weapons and time on or for me. I think it's honorable to fall by your enemy's hands and, I also think that if you behave with respect during the battle, your enemies would do the same for you and keep that in mind while dealing with the handling of your body. If not, well... It must suck to be you.
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Post by Do Not PM this Account. on Nov 25, 2008 16:46:05 GMT -8
Well, here's another question. There are some pires who choose to offer the kill shot (AND KILL SHOT ONLY) to their friends or family. Going down by.. friendly hand, you might say. This sometimes happens if the friend or family is in another clan, during clan wars, or just an innocent bystander.
However, some pires (We'll use Jake for an example just because it's easier, while I admit I DO NOT KNOW if this was exactly the case), assuming they are going to be zeroed after one Holy Water, will ask their friends and family to do the entire killing so that the other party does not get any part in it. What about then? In cases such as this, the friendly party has done the -entire- killing of the party, as well as gotten the kill shot. I don't see the point behind it, though I like the example pire just fine. One weapon to get the kill shot seems justifiable, since a pire can find a stray weapon just laying in the streets on a good day. However, the amount of weapons it would take to -fully kill- (as in take down from a designated amount of blood) a pire who is friend or family simply because they do not want an enemy to have the satisfaction seems like a waste, and overkill to boot (no pun intended). What's the point of that? It is all the more rare, but it still happens.
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Lyric
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Post by Lyric on Nov 25, 2008 17:02:51 GMT -8
Personally, I've yet to experience the situation from any side, but from observation I've come to the opinion that it is a waste, an extreme dishonour and utterly disrespectful to have one's family and/or friends take the final pints.
Weapons and scrolls family and friends have worked hard to collect should be used on enemies in times of war. Or even duel. Not to help a loved one avoid standing up to what is coming their way.
It seems to me, and I be considered idealistic in this, but I believe it is far more honourable to take with head held high the attacks of one's enemies. (Should you find yourself in such a situation as a battle or duel.) Even in the case of a zeroing. If you open your mouth, or cause someone the desire to see you fall, you should stand up and accept the responsibility. After all, ever action has an equal and opposite reaction.
To be so selfish, as to ask one's loved ones to finish them off is beyond disrespectful. No family or friend (Of mine anyway.) would ever have desire to see one they love fall. They, however, would expect to see them take responsibility for their actions. Or to see them fall with grace and dignity, rather than opt for an 'easy out'.
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Idony
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Post by Idony on Nov 25, 2008 17:04:44 GMT -8
I would designate the matter of 'claiming' the body as the greatest motivating factor to asking friends or family to take the kill shot. I'm thinking that's what it was like at first when the rules were just being made (I am committing the sin or presuming, I know, but it is honestly well intended). These days, it seems to be mainly done out of pride. A sort of contradiction, as those asking family to kill them are generally called cowards. But I meant pride as in not letting the other party get the chance to say they 'killed' you per se. The same seems to apply with the differences between zeroing and simply torporing (i.e., to bring below 10 pints). I agree with Tifereth on this one. As long as the target's dead, that's all that really matters.
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 25, 2008 17:46:40 GMT -8
Kill stealing used to be a big deal. It was an insult to the opposing side, depriving them of something they want for themselves. One example I can give, and it is only from a personal aspect is the event that occured when I slipped into the middle of a war zone and took the last 36 bp's from a dear friend as a favor. I figured after sitting there for a few moments that if they were going to finish her they would have. After all, it was a two second shot. In return Capadocious reared his head and decided to demand an apology or attack me. Of course, being my gracious self I expressed my sincerest regrets to him. It WAS quite a sorry thing that he couldn't move fast enough that I managed to lounge around, then throw the necessary weapons and then meander away *shrugs* Anyhoo, he then issued an order that should anyone steal MY kill from him, they too would be 0'd. That failed miserably because he didn't so much as blink when it happened. Go figure. Cap always was more hot air then anything else. In part, that was spite, in part-I felt that Capadocious didn't deserve the honor of dealing my final blow. Arrogant? Perhaps, but no one's perfect *grins* It was during this time, which is a bit of a contradiction, that suddenly 'dead is dead woohoo you saved me weapons' became the new theme. Of course, were that the case, then I suppose Cappy should have apologized to me for making such a big deal about it. Back in the day, it was a big deal to have the proverbial trophy of zeroing someone. These days, there is no fire behind a steal kill. Folks do it because they think its cool or whatever their reasons are but I don't think most have bothered to even find out where these things started (not saying it started with me so please don't assume so) or why or how, nor do I think they examine closely their reasons. To me, being sent to torpor is almost an intimate affair, be it in war or not. I could continue rambling but I won' so errm...yeah ~HiS~ **note-personal opinion
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Post by Katastrophe St. John-Talon on Nov 25, 2008 18:17:57 GMT -8
Personally, I've yet to experience the situation from any side, but from observation I've come to the opinion that it is a waste, an extreme dishonour and utterly disrespectful to have one's family and/or friends take the final pints. Weapons and scrolls family and friends have worked hard to collect should be used on enemies in times of war. Or even duel. Not to help a loved one avoid standing up to what is coming their way. It seems to me, and I be considered idealistic in this, but I believe it is far more honourable to take with head held high the attacks of one's enemies. (Should you find yourself in such a situation as a battle or duel.) Even in the case of a zeroing. If you open your mouth, or cause someone the desire to see you fall, you should stand up and accept the responsibility. After all, ever action has an equal and opposite reaction. To be so selfish, as to ask one's loved ones to finish them off is beyond disrespectful. No family or friend (Of mine anyway.) would ever have desire to see one they love fall. They, however, would expect to see them take responsibility for their actions. Or to see them fall with grace and dignity, rather than opt for an 'easy out'. I couldn't agree with this more. To touch on other things, during Scions vs. D'dary, I would have felt strange to take my final stand against my sire or another loved one. Falling at the hands of a seasoned warrior such as Andre was an honor. Oblivion and Josephine then came to stand by me until my body was claimed. I wouldn't have had it any other way.
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Post by ladypeacek on Nov 26, 2008 1:27:01 GMT -8
I agree with Ophelia...it seems when I first came about in the city that stealing a kill in the final moments during a battle was much more significant, but I think there are reasons for the difference now and then.
One, typically it was done in the heat of the last few moments...no one knew Vampy X was in the wings about to sneak in and rob them of that last shot...which for those that have had that sort of Live experience knows...it does sometimes require an amount of skill to get that specific shot among 5-15 enemies possibly surrounding. Therefore making it worth the steal...and really pissing on the enemies claim. Which was the main reason for the whole thing at all.
It wasn't about stomping your feet and saying..." I dun wanna have that big meanie get my kill" but about just simply insulting your enemy, which to me makes a significant difference.
I have only once asked for a specific person to take my kill shot in my final moments...but it was actually from the other side. In the spat back in April with D'darys and Kaio, I asked Mia to be the one...but that was more for entertainment value on my end, and hers....because we chose for my last bit of fight to be a fun live battle between her and I... a duel between two ex-siblings that still carry a load of respect for one another. It was a bittersweet deal for me since it was Mia, Rena and Sartori that had taught me to Live fight at all.
I honestly think most take killing and being killed much too seriously. There is nothing wrong with going down by the enemies hand if the fight was well played. Who cares if it is 20 pires on one...at the very least, have fun and fight hard. If you believe YOU are in the fight for the right reasons...then in the end you have won your own trophy for fighting to the death for that cause.
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Post by Louvain on Nov 26, 2008 1:56:16 GMT -8
A kill is a kill is a kill. I don't care how it ended. Go ahead. Steal my kill, and save me a weapon. He's still knocked out, right? That's not to say it doesn't take a bit from the experience. It does, but not enough for me to throw a hissy? ;D
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Post by Lestat de Lioncourt on Nov 26, 2008 2:22:45 GMT -8
I think one of the most amusing, and easiest to understand uses of this tactic, was when Ivelios put a bounty on Murrz Ramirez' head. Didn't matter who did the legwork, whoever put him to 0strich won the bounty. Anyway, I digress. Murrz requested that Gargamel finish him off, but it ended up being a tie between her and Icsis, I believe. Either way, the bounty was split. The point is, it is a silly waste of weapons to finish your family/friend, unless there's a bounty to be collected, and you want to see your friends wealthy. And as always, I have to agree with Legion up there. Go ahead, steal my kill. I'll just save my weapons for you.
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Post by black_dragonet on Nov 26, 2008 2:24:58 GMT -8
I follow orders. Always have. Anyone hitting a target designated to me is helping me. I am one to respect the enemies, since he who today is my enemy tomorrow might be my comrade, and because it's simply the way I am. I also believe in going down fighting.
To my knowledge, the original reason why it started is because custom says he who gets the kill shot does whatever he wishes with the body. Some abused the bodies, hence the fighters asked friends to take the last shot and take real care of their bodies. Because of that, I understand those asking the LAST shot be taken by friends, even though it might help the attacking side. I can't understand why one would wish part or the entire zeroing to be at friend's hands...
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Post by Katastrophe St. John-Talon on Nov 26, 2008 6:12:58 GMT -8
I think one of the most amusing, and easiest to understand uses of this tactic, was when Ivelios put a bounty on Murrz Ramirez' head. Didn't matter who did the legwork, whoever put him to 0strich won the bounty. Hee hee, cute.
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Boomerangele
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Post by Boomerangele on Nov 26, 2008 10:31:24 GMT -8
I agree with ophelia & ladyp here. Kills used to be celebrated or gloated over publicly in glorious detail. They mattered because of the propensity of some in the City to mutilate their kills so having a friend or clanmate take the kill shot and pick up the body denied the enemy that little joy. I relish the days of the stories of the kills and the deaths being told in the halls. I used to stand ready, sometimes into the early morning hours, to pick up a friend's body as soon as it was dead in order to keep it from being mutilated.
Now many times you don't even know who took the shot. Dead is dead is boring. But then again, that is what this City has become.
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Persephone
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Post by Persephone on Nov 27, 2008 22:47:44 GMT -8
I have only once asked for a specific person to take my kill shot in my final moments...but it was actually from the other side. In the spat back in April with D'darys and Kaio, I asked Mia to be the one...but that was more for entertainment value on my end, and hers....because we chose for my last bit of fight to be a fun live battle between her and I... a duel between two ex-siblings that still carry a load of respect for one another. It was a bittersweet deal for me since it was Mia, Rena and Sartori that had taught me to Live fight at all. Agreed, the time for me personally that stands out most in memory is when Kaio...though I thought it was Alex at the time...asked me to take the kill shot, sending him into torpor, when someone or other was killing him. He had me use my dagger, laced in garlic spray, to send him into rest. It held a very symbolic emotional tie to the both of us, and meant a lot to me at the time. It was done for a reason, that few knew, and not for "Nyah nyah I stole your killz."
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Elektra
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Post by Elektra on Nov 28, 2008 4:45:11 GMT -8
Ending it quickly is indeed one of the reasons this is done. Sometimes, attackers do seem to take forever to finish the final blows. And sometimes, the target just won't stay out of shadows. Then they whine about not being able to 'die' quickly enough. HAHAHA...
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