seyda
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Oct 29, 2009 12:38:08 GMT -8
Post by seyda on Oct 29, 2009 12:38:08 GMT -8
Allow me to bring this discussion back on topic. I'm not going to discuss the history of the Ferrymen; many good things happened, many mistakes were made, and everyone who was involved has their own understanding of what happened. Past history and done. In terms of the imbalance of power in the city, there have always been alliances which have been dominant. Even when it has been quoted as one clan, it was in fact that clan and a significant number of allies. Over time, that dominant power block has changed. Occasionally (and as far as I can see only back in the mists of time) it was by pure force. But most often, it was because the dominant alliance fell apart, with the factions bringing in a few new partners. The cards were shuffled, and fell into a new pattern with one or two cards rejected but the majority staying the same. Another factor is that a number of the leaders of whichever alliance is in power were key players from the previous alliance. A few additional leaders would come into this "inner clique" with each reshuffle, and most would generally survive a few changes of the top tier before boredom took them. The only one I can think of (off the top of my head) who has always been on the winning team is ophelia, which says a lot for her ability to read the situation. So the only way the power dominating the city will change is through an internal disagreement, followed by things settling back pretty much the way they were with just a few minor changes. That leaves the second tier clans free to play with each other. If they avoid being stupid enough to prod the top tier, they won't get any trouble from them. So these second tier clans can squabble among themselves to their hearts' content. It seems to me that the newer vampires, however fierce and enthusiastic, in many cases lack both discipline and commitment. They seem to find it easy to change both families and clans at the drop of a hat. Through indiscipline, they break clan rules, and then when picked up on it, they don't learn the lesson they just throw a paddy and leave for some other clan (or try to form their own, thinking they know it all). Thus, these second tier clans lack a solid base of members, and this in turn means that new leaders aren't trained. I doubt this situation will change in the forseeable future. It just saddens me a little that the really great themes and causes, the moral differences between clans, have died away. When was the last time that a clan publicly announced it was "good" ? It's been replaced by a sleeping upper tier, and a second tier that are no better than human street-gangs. Oh my god, I agree with you. I think I need a moment....
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Oct 29, 2009 13:13:23 GMT -8
Post by ophelia Lokason on Oct 29, 2009 13:13:23 GMT -8
Want me to come punch you in the neck? Imma giver that way
~HiS~
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Oct 29, 2009 13:31:36 GMT -8
Post by black_dragonet on Oct 29, 2009 13:31:36 GMT -8
*bows* Hello Sir. Your name is an ancient one, almost forgotten, save for the wise who have interest in city history. Yet your voice seems to be still very much worth hearing.
However, allow me to disagree with just a point. The top tier is not sleeping, merely knowing when to fight, and to not fight. What is unsettling some people is that the alliance that "unbalances" the city has not been doing what the alliances of the past used to do: They do not bicker and make fools of themselves.
They just keep working. Hard. They don't waste resources in stupid and useless causes. They teach their members how to behave properly, and think for themselves. As I stated, the second tier is not rising to prosperity, just because they lack what you have eloquently stated: discipline and committment. That, and decent leadership.
For the rest, I have to say that I completely agree with you. In a way, I think the worst that could happen to the top tier clans would be you taking control of one of the second tier clans. You might manage to lead them away from being street gangs to being decent clans, top tier ones...
I am glad you be back, and I hope your stay among us is not just a spell
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Oct 29, 2009 14:10:10 GMT -8
Post by Jean DeVenn on Oct 29, 2009 14:10:10 GMT -8
Thanks for the welcomes ! I still spend more time in my coffin than I should, but I seem to be stirring more often recently.
Seyda, don't worry about agreeing with what I say, I'm sure sooner or later (probably sooner) I'll say something you completely detest :-) But it won't be deliberate or aimed at you; I respect you too much for that. Anyway, I rather like your viewpoint on a lot of things, although you won't catch me admitting that too often....
I think ophelia and black_dragonet you are right. The top tier only appear to be sleeping to the minor clans because they so rarely get to the point of intervening in the pointless squabbles. The top tier clans obviously have plenty of internal community activities to keep them interested and entertained. Which is probably a good thing, as the smaller clans wouldn't know what hit them if the big guys had a moment of boredom in their direction.
As for why the minor clans have no leadership, it's simple. The fickle younger vampires who make up the majority of their members don't stay around long enough to get the training, and too often seem to set up even smaller clans of their own. Without the great schools that clans in the past ran, such as the Shadow Court or Capadocian Dojos (forgive me - I don't know if the top tier clans still run schools), there is no tough diciplined place teaching leadership and structure. The few decent leaders the young clans have are either self-taught, or elders "slumming it", so to speak.
As for my taking control of a second tier clan, I'm not sure if I'm ready for that right now. I spent a long time totally burned out with clan matters, and turning a bunch of indisciplined sprats into a decent fighting machine seems like a lot of thankless work. Who knows, maybe I'll feel up to it at some point in the future, but for now just hanging out, having fun and engaging in a bit of mild philosophy suits me fine. Without all the clan baggage, it allows me to make a fresh start and re-make some friendships that were broken by clan differences.
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Oct 29, 2009 14:34:08 GMT -8
Post by black_dragonet on Oct 29, 2009 14:34:08 GMT -8
True that... It's good to take your time and find what you want to do before doing anything.
Another thing I found the younger vampires lacking is patience. Most take the easy way to fame and glory, and quickly fall from the capitol to the tarpeian rock, when precious few take the slow steady, sometimes boring way of working their way up.
I find that respect is something that can only be freely given, and never demanded, the way so many younglings do it after a few month.
Now and then, some people or smaller clans try to pull the bigger clan's whiskers, and are not quick enough to avoid being crushed by the seemingly sleeping cat's paw. Such fate happened to the Sypheronian clan.
I'd say that's when you really have won it, when you don't even have to flex muscles for your enemies to fear you. If that power is misused, then the clan or alliance will appear bullying the others, thus uniting the opposing clans with a common goal to overthrow the dominating clan. Having the wisdom to not misuse that power allows for both keeping the other scattered, and storing resources when the enemies waste theirs in useless squabbles and skirmishes.
You are right in that we don't need the others to be busy, entertained and happy. Now and then, we look outside the clan to see what we should not do, point fingers some and have a hearty laugh. Now and then we'll encounter a worthy vampire that has not been rotten, and try to bring some wisdom to them, but such encounters are scarce these times, which I regret.
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Boomerangele
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Pleasurably Pink[C01:white]
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Oct 29, 2009 15:40:01 GMT -8
Post by Boomerangele on Oct 29, 2009 15:40:01 GMT -8
Since I don't have a dog in this fight, I've only read with interest and not opinion. But I do have to add -
WELCOME BACK JDV!!!
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seyda
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Oct 29, 2009 16:04:46 GMT -8
Post by seyda on Oct 29, 2009 16:04:46 GMT -8
Seyda, don't worry about agreeing with what I say, I'm sure sooner or later (probably sooner) I'll say something you completely detest :-) But it won't be deliberate or aimed at you; I respect you too much for that. Anyway, I rather like your viewpoint on a lot of things, although you won't catch me admitting that too often.... I only quoted this in case you wake up tomorrow with a hangover and delete it. *nod*
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Josephine
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~Eternally..~
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Oct 29, 2009 16:18:44 GMT -8
Post by Josephine on Oct 29, 2009 16:18:44 GMT -8
You know Seyda keep talking like that and people will think you some blood sucking fiend that lives in perpetual dark....oh hmm.. umm ok try this one, they will think you something truly horrible and awful from another planet..
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Oct 29, 2009 20:14:21 GMT -8
Post by Melanctha Monaghan-Aurelius on Oct 29, 2009 20:14:21 GMT -8
Jean - its really oh so good to see you again. Welcome back ^^
I really must say that I do wholeheartedly agree with Jean, Opie, Rienhardt, Meph, and several others here. The disparity between the elite and the rest is mainly that created by hard work and perseverance. The jostling in tier two basically occurs as those groups try to get better prepared to try to knock off a tier one power. And unless you try to think, and act like a tier one you simply will not be able to out pace them.
I happened to get off two sinking vessels before they hit rock bottom and have had to in essence rebuild from scratch. I mean, lets face it...the "Cap" clan you see today is not the Cap clan of old with Sartori, Cap, Bubbles, and all of those guys running the show. They were a force at that time, but aren't anymore. (I use quotes because I do not recognize Arch angels Cap clan as the true Cap clan, but rather the one with Thalia and company). I was forced out of Ferrymen by a sheer change in philosophies over time and the direction they were going in was one of change and I was wanting to stay more in the old mindset that Jean, Cerri, and Vella (before she lost it) had set up. Wasn't really anything much more then that, but as you can see our histories vary greatly from that November in 2007.
People can rise from lower to higher tiers, and people can fall, and when they fall, they often fall harder then anything we've seen before. If you don't like being Tier two, do something about it through making wiser decisions, politically or economically. Don't blame it on peace or something else. Look at your situation first. Educate, work, strive.
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Damari
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Oct 29, 2009 20:47:43 GMT -8
Post by Damari on Oct 29, 2009 20:47:43 GMT -8
I dont' see what all the fuss is about. If people minded their own shit and got the job done they would find that eventually their contribution to the greater whole will be appreciated.
I was always, and still am, of the belief that no great work is done in the public eye. No great deed was ever acted upon that wasn't first reinforced by the daily commitment of those who were willing not to get kudos for what they did, but were still willing to put the time in to ensure the smooth running of the entity for which they supported.
The diabolical comparison being that the quiet workers who are the back bone of any clan aren't the ones who are recognised for what they do and how hard they work and a good clan, a functioning clan, a successful and thriving clan are ones that have alot of THOSE people. The workers, the sloggers, the ones who will do the jobs, tasks and put effort in where effort is required and DO NOT require public accolades for that work.
It is enough and it is in how leaders support, encourage and motivate THOSE active members that are the reasons why they are successful.
You want to see the power behind any good clan? Find out how they function, who are their backbone, who comes in every day, every other day and puts in the work to see their goals accomplished. You want to know why one is successful, the recipe is easy and simple and beyond measure the hardest thing to make real. People who are willing, enthusiastic, want to work for the clan and not just sit back like some Hollywood Starlet reaping in the rewards of notoriety.
WARS? Glory? No clan will gain this, without the months, years and daily minutes that go into ensuring the fully productive, stocked and trained members. And I find that the less experienced leaders are a little to impatient to see that come to fruition.
I figured out a long time ago where I fit in this strategy and I made it my own and I realised a long time ago where my value lay and I’ve cultivated it. And all, except those very close to me, get it wrong.
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Oct 29, 2009 20:57:06 GMT -8
Post by Melanctha Monaghan-Aurelius on Oct 29, 2009 20:57:06 GMT -8
I dont' see what all the fuss is about. If people minded their own shit and got the job done they would find that eventually their contribution to the greater whole will be appreciated. I was always, and still am, of the belief that no great work is done in the public eye. No great deed was ever acted upon that wasn't first reinforced by the daily commitment of those who were willing not to get kudos for what they did, but were still willing to put the time in to ensure the smooth running of the entity for which they supported. The diabolical comparison being that the quiet workers who are the back bone of any clan aren't the ones who are recognised for what they do and how hard they work and a good clan, a functioning clan, a successful and thriving clan are ones that have alot of THOSE people. The workers, the sloggers, the ones who will do the jobs, tasks and put effort in where effort is required and DO NOT require public accolades for that work. It is enough and it is in how leaders support, encourage and motivate THOSE active members that are the reasons why they are successful. You want to see the power behind any good clan? Find out how they function, who are their backbone, who comes in every day, every other day and puts in the work to see their goals accomplished. You want to know why one is successful, the recipe is easy and simple and beyond measure the hardest thing to make real. People who are willing, enthusiastic, want to work for the clan and not just sit back like some Hollywood Starlet reaping in the rewards of notoriety. WARS? Glory? No clan will gain this, without the months, years and daily minutes that go into ensuring the fully productive, stocked and trained members. And I find that the less experienced leaders are a little to impatient to see that come to fruition. I figured out a long time ago where I fit in this strategy and I made it my own and I realised a long time ago where my value lay and I’ve cultivated it. And all, except those very close to me, get it wrong. I'm just going to entitle this epic win and go with it. Its little things (like education >>) that people take for granted that build character and strength that people don't account for and are too impatient to include in their plans of city domination. *kicks that soapbox away before she gets going on a personal tangent*
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Jocelyn
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Curious
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Nov 1, 2009 21:28:02 GMT -8
Post by Jocelyn on Nov 1, 2009 21:28:02 GMT -8
I agree with you, Damari. On a personal note I tend to find that those who fight for the spotlight and to have their achievements noted shit me to tears! The big talkers in clans make me want to throw up on their shoes a little >>... Ahem, but that's just me.
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Jocelyn
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Nov 1, 2009 21:32:46 GMT -8
Post by Jocelyn on Nov 1, 2009 21:32:46 GMT -8
Oh, oh and P.S. *points at Jean* OMG, what are you doing out of your coffin, old man? Dragging dust everywhere!!!
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Nov 2, 2009 12:13:36 GMT -8
Post by Jean DeVenn on Nov 2, 2009 12:13:36 GMT -8
Hey ! Less of the "old", you. I'm only middle-aged, hardly ancient at all. The dust is purely for decorative purposes, that's all. Just a contribution to the general Halloween and decaying wonter-look decor.
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Henry Key
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I lost the Game[C01:FFFFFF]
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Nov 2, 2009 15:52:12 GMT -8
Post by Henry Key on Nov 2, 2009 15:52:12 GMT -8
I disagree with all of you.
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