|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 18:18:54 GMT -8
Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 22, 2009 18:18:54 GMT -8
ophelia has donned some costumes and become a spy. Got busted though because she wasn't neaaaaaaaaarly as good as running that spy as Ondag. Well, not at all really. Kenosha was and could probably still be one of THE best spy masters in the city. CBK without a doubt. Mmm..Lucius gave it a go but he preferred to be getting the information FROM the spy master.
Cap, AQD, SC, CoB....many more I'm sure but that's just off the top of my head, benefited over the years because of masters that could don a disguise and do it so well they would not get caught for a very long time, sometimes if at all. And if they get caught...well there was hell to pay on the spy master.
If people wish to consider the players of spy masters hideous crossers that is ALWAYS your right to do so.Just make sure you include EVERYONE that has done it, been involved in it, is currently doing it, has taught how to do it or has/is benefiting from it. Also make very very sure no current intel that the vampire has received, past intel, future intel EVER comes from a real live spy, even if its something that's been filtered down the grapevine of friends. As some so often, more so than others, get accused of being dirty by association and all that jazz.
Perhaps some of us take a different view of 'spies' in which you all call the player crossers simply because of our experiences and how we deal with them. I for one am quite disappointed that it is so easy to drag around the cross of OOC abuse that no one takes into consideration anything else, nor will. Because I think its easiest to be a person 'wronged' than a person with a willingness to have a dialog opened that involves other views on things and perhaps finding a compromise somewhere.
Maybe instead of taking it like some kind of personal plight and picking and choosing whatever it is you want to see you take a good look back at some of the posts here and there, at least recently. You'll see a good many vampire, reputable strong smart vampires, have been duped by a spy. You'll also find it very rare that they start crying ooc foul.
In fact, FOR my character, that 'I' control and does not control me, there is very little that I will actually take issue with OOC, and if there is something that comes up I will be sure to speak out on it for a moment and note it. Especially if it is something that effects my creation. Fortunately what effects my creation does not effect me and has not for a very long time. That's apparently a rare and special thing.
I know people are going to presume otherwise, but I didn't start this thread to poke at anyone, I just wanted to address my particular take on the 'spy' issue away from any of the other stuff going on.
Also Sireena, I know you are not going to stifle the players here, but I would really appreciate if, asking in advance, if this thread starts more stomping ranting and hurling of things instead of a normal discussion that you lock it down when you get the chance, or any other mod that can do it or whatever.
**you is not a specific you**
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 18:21:57 GMT -8
Post by Louvain on Nov 22, 2009 18:21:57 GMT -8
To reiterate:
This is not a David/Pulse is a douchebag thread. This is not specifically about that situation. This is about spies and what constitutes them about "crossing" or why they are not, as the case may be.
Whining may result in Sirena going to kill more zombies and bitching about you instead of doing her paper.
|
|
rel
New Member
byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:25:29 GMT -8
Post by rel on Nov 22, 2009 19:25:29 GMT -8
Spies are awesome. Spy characters are great too. The best spies I've seen were those that were taken from student pools so that it was always their main character that went undercover so there wasn't a gray area in having a 'minion character' who worked for the main as a spy, but it's been the basis of some of the greatest mind 'fucks' this game has seen.
I think my only question is in regards to who does those fooled retaliate on? I was always under the impression that the main character was the one responsible, so...for example...if rel had a spy in a neighboring clan and was discovered, then that clan could and prolly would go after rel, wouldn't you agree?
Then, it's pretty simple not to cross. If, by what I'm gathering, the character Pulse had a spy somewhere and was discovered then that clan could totally go kick Pulse's ass and anyone he was clanned with. The spy character is incidental, as it could be construed as 'Pulse' in disguise.
It's honestly why those of us who play characters more inclined to thievery got jazzed with this shit. The intel, the tracking, the mapping, the sighting for tags to find the bankers and or spies...it wasn't about finding other characters it was about finding the minions of the main character. That's gotten all sorts of screwy with the playing of multiple characters so good luck on everyone agreeing about this subject!
modified to add that ....just as a side note, please kill more zombies. ALWAYS KILL ZOMBIES. IC, OOC, ALL C - the killing of zombies has my stamp of approval!
|
|
Beezil
New Member
IC: Beezil | OOC: Emma
Posts: 123
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:29:06 GMT -8
Post by Beezil on Nov 22, 2009 19:29:06 GMT -8
I just don't like the idea of spies... honestly the first time I heard about someone doing it was when Kaelani did it. I could be bias on the whole matter, due to my years of playing WoW and utterly HATING rogues. o.O I dunno. I just think it's a cheap, low down dirty trick, and to do something like spying just makes your character seem... well... Low. Not to mention some people use it as a cover for what is really considered crossing by most players of this game.
On the other hand, if you are seriously RPing the scenario, as in your character is WORKING as a spy, for months, years w/e... Well, I guess I can respect that? It would be pretty hard I'd think and I doubt I'd be able to withstand the pressure or the likely consequences thereafter both IC and OOC.
|
|
Moons
New Member
Posts: 863
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:32:41 GMT -8
Post by Moons on Nov 22, 2009 19:32:41 GMT -8
A character that is sent in by another group such as the Wildes sending Moons to spy on a clan, or another family would be fine in my opinion. I think that if the thing is well played that it's fine. My only problem arises when a "thrall" is specifically created to infiltrate another group and that thrall's information is passed to a "main"; that is when spying ceases to be RP and becomes information crossing.
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:34:49 GMT -8
Post by Penny Shadowlight on Nov 22, 2009 19:34:49 GMT -8
I'm confused how using an alt in other group or clan is considered spying. Usually before joining a clan or group there is some OOC contact. Asking if the person has alts in other groups, etc. Is it still considered spying if it goes into OOC lying? And what about using someone else's log in info to gain information? I think most clan sites are treated as buildings, so how is doing an OOC action, like logging into an account, dealt with?
I really liked what Damari's player was saying about spying. Actually using her character and putting her into the other group to gain info. That seems like actual roleplaying.
|
|
Moons
New Member
Posts: 863
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:36:10 GMT -8
Post by Moons on Nov 22, 2009 19:36:10 GMT -8
I'm confused how using an alt in other group or clan is considered spying. Usually before joining a clan or group there is some OOC contact. Asking if the person has alts in other groups, etc. Is it still considered spying if it goes into OOC lying? And what about using someone else's log in info to gain information? I think most clan sites are treated as buildings, so how is doing an OOC action, like logging into an account, dealt with? I really liked what Damari's player was saying about spying. Actually using her character and putting her into the other group to gain info. That seems like actual roleplaying. Like I said, that takes skill. That takes balls. That is respectable in RP; in regards to the part about Damari.
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:37:27 GMT -8
Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 22, 2009 19:37:27 GMT -8
ophelia would retaliate on Rel. In this hypothetical situation, rel is the spymaster with a brilliant disguise. She would have fooled some great security. That's a slap in the face right there. (I'm snickering now just fyi)
If the spy masters clan/family chooses to retaliate then BOOM you either have a clan/family that lets the goat go to sacrifice and eating the wrong or saying 'fark it' and beating down the opponent or getting beaten down.
~M
|
|
Moons
New Member
Posts: 863
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:45:55 GMT -8
Post by Moons on Nov 22, 2009 19:45:55 GMT -8
ophelia would hit a character for the actions of another?
You, Michelle, would use OOC knowledge that they were played by the same person and thus one must be a spy for the other to condone hitting the "Main" vampire?
That isn't roleplay based in the least; and it is that type of behaviour that I hear complaints about all of the time.
I have had successful spy rings in other games. My character Addictive Arsenik in TAC has spies in a few families in clans who were taken from those who applied to join his clan. Their first test before ever getting into the Mafia Del Veleno was to gain information and they've been doing so for months.
No thralls were made for it, no information was crossed between IC and OOC.
There is a proper way to spy for RP.
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 19:57:27 GMT -8
Post by ladypeacek on Nov 22, 2009 19:57:27 GMT -8
I recall my very first run-in with Shadow Court and Ophelia under the guise of Sopine (don't we all miss that unlovable little antisocial wench?). It was the biggest scare I have ever endured! When I originally started playing Pea- I had NO clue what rp was about- so eventually I was ready to drop Pea and make a REAL character- one that gave the game spice for me, rather than dull pea who was basically me. So, I started Sopine- loved playing her, was probably the most enjoyment I have yet to have in this city.
Unfortunately, I was not attempting to spy but Lesion, through a screenshot, realized that I played Pea (who was in the process of leaving the city)- this chick no one had yet even heard of past the fact she existed. So Sopine, pooooor Soppy was put on TRIAL- and even had it threatened that Pea's companion (who she bound to for clan and had no idea what she was doing) was going to be ZEROED because of Sopine...I was horrified given that Koub (the companion) was so innocent, it was MY OOC mistake and newbness and he was gonna lose more than 50k blood. All in all I was a freakin mess- and so grateful that Ophelia and gang understood my newbie attempt at recreating a character I could play...WHEW. My ONLY regret is that I went crawling back to pea, rather than keeping Soppy and ditching Pea. Sopine was a hoot to play.
However, given all that and through my time in the game- I think it is silly to jump to OOC and be insulted when a main gets smacked for the sins of an alt or to call spies crossers- whether that alt is a genuine character working for their main- or the main supposedly in disguise. If there is crossing of info on your part between characters it is MOST appropriate to deal with it IC and take the beating. I would rather be known as a failure spy IC than an ooc crosser. *shrugs* If you are new and it was a mistake- say so and deal with it civily- but if you've been around long enough to know better...take the beating and lesson to be careful with spying or crossing ways.
I learned a lot through that- and am glad for the experience...it was fun even if I was scared to death about what I had caused...*snorts*
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 20:04:23 GMT -8
Post by Pulse St. John on Nov 22, 2009 20:04:23 GMT -8
There is no one set method for RP on this game. Just like to throw that in there! It's a grid.. WE make the RP. WE call what is foul or not. There is no set in stone rules. So it's free game really just as long as you don't break the grid rules etc.
|
|
Moons
New Member
Posts: 863
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 20:11:29 GMT -8
Post by Moons on Nov 22, 2009 20:11:29 GMT -8
There are established protocols and rules for RP that exist in other sites and other games of a simillar type.
There is such thing as crossing and there is such thing as spying without crossing.
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 20:17:21 GMT -8
Post by Damiana Jones on Nov 22, 2009 20:17:21 GMT -8
There are rules to roleplaying, David. They may not be written out like the rules for the grids are, but there are rules. That is what is so wonderful about roleplaying. The rules are so universal despite the fact they may not be written down. And if they are...it's pretty clear what they mean. I've roleplayed on many many other sites, and it's quite funny to see how most of the rules are mirror images of each other.
1. No one likes a crosser. 2. No one likes a godmodder 3. No one likes being insulted OOC for IC things.
To say everything is free game is just a lame argument to promote that everyone can do whatever they want and screw the people who are generally hurt by such inconsiderations. There are rules so that everyone can have fun. Equally.
Anyway. Back on topic because that really had nothing to do with spying.
I condone spying but I only condone it for people who are mature OOC wise. I think spying IC takes a lot of effort OOC-wise. One has to make a conscious effort to control their character so they don't give away their position. I feel that not everyone is cut out to have their character be spies. I feel like the right players for spies are the players who don't have their characters spy for a malicious reason OOCly. And you can tell who is doing it for OOC reasons and who is doing it for IC reasons. The ones that do it for IC reasons think it over more. They plan it better. They make more of a conscious effort.
A lot of people who do it for OOC reasons do it in the spur of the moment and are genuinely sloppy with it. I'd never tried to have Uriah a spy. I think it would have made things interesting. I wouldn't mind trying it in the future to be honest.
|
|
kaio999
New Member
It may be that your death is simply a warning to others.[C01:F8F8FF]
Posts: 617
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 20:18:58 GMT -8
Post by kaio999 on Nov 22, 2009 20:18:58 GMT -8
I totally support and expect spies, does that mean you have to make up a human behind it yes? and that is unfortunate and the only time I would ever have a problem with spying is if you use the made up human to break in.
Ex. I create a spy with a fake human named Joe. and a vamp named X, X is breaking into ygg and convinces ophelia. However Joe attempts to get into a relationship with ophelias human. As friends or whatever else, and uses THAT relationship to get clan secrets. THAT is crossing and that should be intolerable among players. Does the human sometimes have to interact with others mildly? yes, however the moment it could harm a player I feel it must be terminated immediately.
|
|
|
Spies
Nov 22, 2009 20:24:36 GMT -8
Post by ophelia Lokason on Nov 22, 2009 20:24:36 GMT -8
First of all, please. I sign my ooc posts as ~M~ for a reason. Respect that.
As for questions of crossing in reference to built spies, please refer to my original post here. I don't expect folks to agree with that stance, as diversity and difference is great, but don't please start casting negative assumptions at my human, one that very few actually get to hold ooc conversations with.
Thanks!
M
|
|