Damia
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Posts: 186
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 8:46:58 GMT -8
Post by Damia on Nov 23, 2009 8:46:58 GMT -8
Not really. I have always considered Damia good, but the one time she did spy, was because she felt AA had broken his oath to the clan, so therefore hers was null and void.
So even with a goodie two shoes you can do it..though she only did it for a short while and at the end of her term as Guild leader >.>
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rel
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byrren jous ninta yibinss wun ninta xo'a ulu kl'ae vel'bol zhah udosst..er'griff l' seke ph' shebali
Posts: 1,013
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 8:54:44 GMT -8
Post by rel on Nov 23, 2009 8:54:44 GMT -8
True - but my point was looking at the morals of the character black_dragonet. He's like a friggin paladin in his structure, and I love his character as a player. Players that deem themselves...wait a minute. AA is a warring clan. I'm talking classic RP alignments. Stuff you decide prior to creating your character. You may think you're 'good', but you were in a warring clan. I am talking about those vampire characters that are playing truly neutral or good. No war, no stealing, those that are trying to live as they did as humans. AA is evil.
This has less to do with you thinkin...listen, rel thinks she's good too. Good at stealing, having a good fashion sense, good at seduction, really good at killing zombies, parties, enjoying the city, not taking things personally, not dealing with drama, bla bla bla. So in her eyes, she's very good. Other characters, who are also within a aligning evil clan, may think she's not so good. May call her a whore without having had one conversation with her, may hate that she steals within houses, etc.
Those are two very different things. Or at least the point in using EVIL as an alignment term was. Hope that clarifies!
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Damia
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Posts: 186
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 9:13:35 GMT -8
Post by Damia on Nov 23, 2009 9:13:35 GMT -8
lol very true >> Course she was in her crusader good..(aka I just joined the game and was a NEWB) *cough* Though technically I still think shes the good one out of all my charries.. <<Sadness. So wait..not to derail..but why can't good vamps be in warring clans? >> Course AA was an evil...*dodohead* so I really think the clan should have been aligned evil >> but regardless Im curious?
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 9:26:36 GMT -8
Post by Pulse St. John on Nov 23, 2009 9:26:36 GMT -8
There are rules to roleplaying, David. They may not be written out like the rules for the grids are, but there are rules. That is what is so wonderful about roleplaying. The rules are so universal despite the fact they may not be written down. And if they are...it's pretty clear what they mean. I've roleplayed on many many other sites, and it's quite funny to see how most of the rules are mirror images of each other. 1. No one likes a crosser. 2. No one likes a godmodder 3. No one likes being insulted OOC for IC things. To say everything is free game is just a lame argument to promote that everyone can do whatever they want and screw the people who are generally hurt by such inconsiderations. There are rules so that everyone can have fun. Equally. Anyway. Back on topic because that really had nothing to do with spying. I condone spying but I only condone it for people who are mature OOC wise. I think spying IC takes a lot of effort OOC-wise. One has to make a conscious effort to control their character so they don't give away their position. I feel that not everyone is cut out to have their character be spies. I feel like the right players for spies are the players who don't have their characters spy for a malicious reason OOCly. And you can tell who is doing it for OOC reasons and who is doing it for IC reasons. The ones that do it for IC reasons think it over more. They plan it better. They make more of a conscious effort. A lot of people who do it for OOC reasons do it in the spur of the moment and are genuinely sloppy with it. I'd never tried to have Uriah a spy. I think it would have made things interesting. I wouldn't mind trying it in the future to be honest. I don't think you are quite understanding my point. It has everything to do with spying. This game is very fluid in nature, with rules and outlooks changing at whim. Don't think for a moment that I didn't know the browser was showing with tell tell give away. The game of spying within this game itself is a very controversial topic being that if you so much as ruffle another persons feathers they go OOC and call crossing, calling foul. If it was possible to spy on an IC basis with OOC contact with the other players that would be preferable, but we all know that there are a few amount of people who are way too drug into this game to see that it would be a fun effort to go OOC a moment, plan an awesome story line with intrigue and all that jazz then make it work IC. Had I thought that possible I'd have been all over that, but over the time spent here I have come to realize that to effectively spy within the game you pretty much have to be a completely different person. Often times telling half truths, and out right lies because the fact that many forget that this game is exactly that. A Game. Why people get worked up and are content with nearly 15 pages of an OOC rant about a simple error on my part, in which they chose to blast me OOC yelling crossing, etc. The game has moved beyond being a game for many people turning into a second life for many of the players for what ever reason they have grown such addicted too it. So I do conclude that to effectively spy within the game, yeah you gotta lie, you got to tell untruths, and you can't rely on the interaction OOC that people say the separate when in fact you go to someone with an RP proposal, Oh Hi! I'm going to be spying on your characters with such and such... that isn't ever going to work because it's human nature to have the need to win, and as such the characters would out the spy blah blah blah. I'm done.
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seyda
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Posts: 844
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 9:41:59 GMT -8
Post by seyda on Nov 23, 2009 9:41:59 GMT -8
I think a huge part of the disconnect here is that the game itself and what is allowable and not has shifted dramatically over the 5 years I've been here. When I arrived, playing multiple characters was something that the player society as a whole did not appreciate. It was much easier then to throw on a mask (aka fire up an intel alt) and jam them in clans, because IDs did not exist. The first sets of players playing multi-characters that I had even heard of being accepted by the community was Liz and Ellen. Then the chats appeared, and all hell broke loose as far as players playing multiple characters are concerned. Newer players are now coming to the table thinking that having multiple characters are cool and acceptable, while the older players are still operating under the rules that were there upon their arrival. I know someone made a comment about multi-characters not being allowed "anymore." That's more of a testament to the time period of someone's arrival to the game than anything, IMO. Spy characters are awesome. I will NEVER forget the night that intelpete from TIC showed up and said to Seyda, "You will be attacked by the Cap Clan in 5 minutes." Turns out, he thought he was talking to Sapphira. Seyda knew Sapphira, and got the call into Seraphim just before the first strike came. The amount of fun that whole night was... My character got totally duped by CBK and Heorot in her first year of RoR. Hell, that spy had become Seyda's 'sibling' and was even set to bind to Seyda's sire before we busted him. Seyda suspected, she and twylyte worked on it, twylyte figured out who it was, and then we set the characters up IC by faking a conference declaring that RoR was going to turn on SIE, join with Ygg and then attack SIE. AQel bought it and ran to Hesu to warn her. Bam...caught. CBK was then zeroed by the Unholy Alliance in the middle of a war. FUN TIMES!!!! Now, here are my issues with spy characters: 1. Like Rob said earlier, when someone creates an entire OOC persona to dupe someone. There were issues with Nicola (CBK) because he had created an OOC persona to play Istvar. Eli and I had gotten really upset at him for that, because he had convinced Cinde that he was someone else completely. However, looking back at some of the information given, I realized that Nicola had been extremely vague OOCly and that Cinde had almost no ability to separate and had hounded him for OOC information. When I first came into the game (and I'm not going to use names since it will be flogging a really dead horse), Seyda was taught how to put the mask on and infiltrate several clans. She had a mask in about 6 clans at one point. My issues started when the player behind the clan leader started declaring that all of the masks were actually separate characters. Then I proceeded to watch this person create OOC personas for all of them and then share information between all of the masks. You simply cannot say they are separate characters and then information share between them. I protested several times and was told that I was too new and didn't know what I was talking about. Fine. When Cap Clan (a place she and I both had masks) began hitting CoB and my mask in another clan not affiliated with Cap Clan was instructed to hit UnicornDream, I did it, and then as I watched the intel from one "separate" character show up on that group's area, I realized I was done with it all. I pulled everyone out from everywhere, and went looking for Bron (Uni's player) to explain things. It's led into Seyda's overly paranoid IC stance that anyone with matching dog tags is a spy and why in general, I personally don't believe that everyone can really separate everything. Although I think I'm getting better with that OOCly, but I really have Liz to thank for that shift in stance. Okay, that was actually 1 and 2 jammed together.... 3. I also have a problem with 'Robin Hood' complexes. It drives me crazy when someone will use a thrall for ends they feel is justified and then condemn everything else. I had this debate ICly a few months ago with the intel versus coin debate, but it extends here too. If you accept the usage of a thrall for shop and guild locations, then you cannot condemn those that use it for coin. Likewise, if you use a thrall to sit in spots in the city (Hall of Binding, Hall of Severance, Graveyard, Transits) and collect information, then you cannot condemn the use of spy characters. Because you have a spy character, too. Me personally? I won't do it anymore because it takes a ridiculous amount of time and energy and if I would have, Seyda wouldn't be where she is today. However, if someone is doing it and handing Seyda intel, she's not going to decline it, either. The 'spy gets caught' story is one of the most interesting ones that I remember in my time here. It's about time it floats to the surface again, IMHO. Spies have been around since the beginning of this city. Sartori did it, CBK did it, intelpete did it, and several others that weren't as good at it did so as well. Coming into this game and bringing your rules from other games and using that as fodder to condemn people OOCly is akin to coming into this game and deciding that the first years of it aren't legitimate because you played XYZ and that's not how they do it there. Well, this isn't there. This is this game, and this is what happened from the time of it's inception. The older players have made concessions for this new dynamic and have started letting multi-character players in (trust me, this is a recent concession for a LOT of older players). I believe that a concession that there is a type of way that this game has been played since it's inception, and to accept that rather than branding anyone playing that way bastards OOC would be appropriate in return.
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 9:43:34 GMT -8
Post by Louvain on Nov 23, 2009 9:43:34 GMT -8
I wouldn't use a thrall to spy just like I wouldn't use a thrall to attack anyone. For me, it wouldn't be daring, fun, or brave. It also seems to be a fine display of crossing, unless done in a very specific manner. In fact, most common thrall usage breaks the game, and makes it incredibly hard to enjoy.
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Elektra
New Member
Obsession. Compulsion. Perfection.[C01:Grey]
Posts: 950
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 9:47:55 GMT -8
Post by Elektra on Nov 23, 2009 9:47:55 GMT -8
Thanks for that long-winded but very much needed detailed explanation, Steph. *blinks* omg...OH MY G-D that was John? WE THOUGHT THAT PLAYER WENT TO WAR! wow, i bow my hat to him...holy hell, had NO idea... BAHA. I know! I found out a year or so back that -he- was the one behind the vamp and near-strangled him. XD But it was fun. Every time I see it, I prod him about it. LOL. Apparently he dropped the character because he got the info he needed from another spy. *dies*
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Damari
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[C01:Yellow]
Posts: 1,410
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 9:57:17 GMT -8
Post by Damari on Nov 23, 2009 9:57:17 GMT -8
While I can appreciate what you're saying, RB is not real. It's a game. Real spies may lie, but if I'm talking to someone OOC, I expect the truth from then. Otherwise, it makes them, the player, an unworthy and dishonest person and someone I'd rather not be playing with. Sorry, I'll take integrity as a player over a silly game any day. Why are you telling me RB isn't real? I think sometimes Monica you're purposely obtuse just so you can be all self righteous.As if saying the right words, means you're that sort of person. And people who say they don't lie, don't need to lie, won't lie are liars. It's unrealistic, it's not possible and there is no way, like Melissa said, to spy and not lie. The trouble has always been, what you were willing to do to make your character believable to what it was doing. As Damari she had to lie that she hated being in The Ferrymen. I personally had to lie when it went ooc or I omitted which can be just as hurtful as lying. But that's an ooc choice I make because I know, in PLAYING THE CHARACTER certain sacrifices and choices need to be made by me ooc and I would need to accept those before I went into it. I stand by my statement that you have to be comfortable with lying to make being a spy work. It's what being a spy means, to lie, infiltrate and steal information from the enemy to give to your true ally. None of those leave room for honour bound oaths against lying, IC or OOC. It's not as accepted ooc cause in a perfect cookie cutter world we are all meant to be truthful about eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverything. I'll say it right now. I'm not truthful about EVERYTHING... IC or OOC. I can't possibly imagine how much trouble I'd get in if I told people something as inflammatory as the TRUTH all the time. ** took out inappropriate American bashing bits - Sorry **
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Damia
New Member
Posts: 186
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 10:07:58 GMT -8
Post by Damia on Nov 23, 2009 10:07:58 GMT -8
Most the time I'd agree out right to this. But I have done it. Though true spying is not a constant thing for my charrie, but the one time I did it, I never had to lie. True, she was in the clan for a year or so before she started, and she had to fake an apology ic. But ooc. I never ever had to lie. Though again this was probably made easy considering who it was against. But I still thing there are a few ways to do spying and not lie ooc or not all the time anyways.
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 10:22:01 GMT -8
Post by Pulse St. John on Nov 23, 2009 10:22:01 GMT -8
Because Hind sight is 20/20 I'd like to make the concession that my post is a blanket statement, not attacking a single individual or any group of individuals.
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Elektra
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Obsession. Compulsion. Perfection.[C01:Grey]
Posts: 950
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 10:22:24 GMT -8
Post by Elektra on Nov 23, 2009 10:22:24 GMT -8
Cookie cutter! That reminds me. I need to get a clover shaped one from eBay. >.>
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 11:02:13 GMT -8
Post by Majica on Nov 23, 2009 11:02:13 GMT -8
Why are you telling me RB isn't real?
I think sometimes Monica you're purposely obtuse just so you can be all self righteous. As if saying the right words, means you're that sort of person.
And people who say they don't lie, don't need to lie, won't lie are liars. It's unrealistic, it's not possible and there is no way, like Melissa said, to spy and not lie. The trouble has always been, what you were willing to do to make your character believable to what it was doing. What isn't there to understand Puawii? You made a statement, I answered it. You said.... Real spies lie. In order to have a believable spy you have to lie. You have to keep lying and you have to be okay with lying. There is no ‘gentleman’s ooc rules of engagement’ honour in spying because the only way to go about it, IC and OOC is to lie to people, IC and OOC. And I said what I did... While I can appreciate what you're saying, RB is not real. It's a game. Real spies may lie, but if I'm talking to someone OOC, I expect the truth from then. Otherwise, it makes them, the player, an unworthy and dishonest person and someone I'd rather not be playing with. Sorry, I'll take integrity as a player over a silly game any day. I said what I did because when I'm talking to someone OOC, I expect the person that I'm talking to, to be a real life person and not some lying, cheating, hoping to get in-game-information-spy. Hense, why I said I can appreciate what you said in relation that 'real' spies lie. You are not a 'real life spy' so, if I'm to talk to you OOC, I would expect that whom I'm talking to, is you Puawii.
I don't see where that has anything to do with being obtuse or self righteous. I choose to keep my integrity intact and not lie to people when talking to them OOC. Whether it be about a game or anything else. The same can be said for Majica.
So I guess what I'm trying to understand here, is that you're ok with blatently lying to my face... me, as Monica... in order to see what you can find out about Majica & family IC while porttaying a spy in the game? If that be the case, when would anyone ever know if and when the game ends for you and the real life begins?
Now if you took that to be obtuse or self righteous there's nothing I can do about that. But I'll stick to what I said earlier. If I'm talking to a player OOC, I expect the truth from said player and not that they're still playing the game as a spy charrie that's going to intentionally try to mislead me OOC for IC information. The trouble has always been, what you were willing to do to make your character believable to what it was doing. And see, I guess I'm just not willing to go the distance in this regard. I'm not willingly going to lie to someone OOC in order to acheive something like this for IC purposes. I value the real person over a game.
Hope that makes sense to the masses.
Edited to add: Maybe I'm completely missing what you said or meant, but this is how I read it. If I'm wrong, then please, yes, correct me. But I would appreciate it being done in a not so pissy way as I am trying not to come off as those things you said, but instead, trying to understand. Thank you.
:Monica
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 11:16:13 GMT -8
Post by Louvain on Nov 23, 2009 11:16:13 GMT -8
I kind of agree with that. ^^^^
However, I just tend to not ask questions like that OOCly, because I know it'd be hard to keep it out of Louvain's head, and that wouldn't be fair to the other player.
This seems like the torpor argument. >.> No clear answers.
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 11:26:13 GMT -8
Post by Louvain on Nov 23, 2009 11:26:13 GMT -8
I'm not even going to get into lying to a real-life person OOC in order to further the agenda of your character. That's a bit awkward for me at the moment. Continuing the -actual- conversation at hand off of one of Steph's points: Does having "webcam" in the Halls make Coquette a spy? It's the one thrall that I do use to garner information (anymore, I had other webbies but they died *wails) and 'he' is roleplayed as a piece of technology that is Bluetooth'd to Coquette's laptop in her Bite office to catch soundbits of conversations in the Halls and gain information to post about bindings. Everyone knows webcam is directly linked to Coquette, he's not a different 'vampire', and he/it doesn't have a different player. Is that spying, or is that an instance where it's a okay? I personally don't have an issue with spying though as others have said I do have an issue when people make up false personalities OOC.. whether it's for their mains or otherwise. I can't count the number of times I bitched at Brandy over "Matt". I don't even have a problem with using thralls for spying as long as you do have a cleverly detailed RP to go along with it that could explain what's going on.. IE.. at the start of Rping this spy character perhaps people aren't aware of the hair being a wig, the colored contacts, and the accent not being true. And perhaps over time.. you leave hints in RP. Drop the accent momentarily as a mistake. Have a contact fall out.. if your character is involved sexually with someone, have him grab the spy's hair and pull her wig off and have to explain the situation. Hell.. you want to play conflicted relationship? If they're "in love" drag him in with you (with permission of the player)! Fall in love and pull him into your spy game too. It can be done well with a thrall. But people are a bit too anxious to scream crosser that even if you DID leave those hints in RP, people wouldn't catch them. They'd just bitch because they're not aware of the subtleties. No, I don't use spies but that's because I'm not a great actor. I would love to use any one of those stories in RP now though. I feel smart that I even thought of them. *preens* Someone make a spy and let me help you write that stuff!
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Damari
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[C01:Yellow]
Posts: 1,410
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Spies
Nov 23, 2009 11:54:43 GMT -8
Post by Damari on Nov 23, 2009 11:54:43 GMT -8
In Answer to Monica:
I guess this one is easy for me and I don't feel it's necessary to fiddle around with semantics, or pretend I wouldn’t and haven’t.
If Damari was a spy. If I had a spy alt and you asked me a direct ooc question that would put that alt or Damari in danger of being discovered. Then yeah, I’d lie or I’d attempt to omit but omitting when asked directly is being a little obvious.
I’d just lie.
My integrity is just fine with that. I don’t pretend to be some Knight in Shining armour. I will fully admit the human factor in my personality. I will and have manipulated people, even in this game.
What gets me are people who get all hoity about it as if they’ve never manipulated a situation and never lied to better their own ends.
But like Reese, I never ask those questions ooc and people don’t tend to ask ME those questions ooc. I’m very IC-centric in this game.
God, I feel like I should qualify this because I don’t want to hurt your feelings. Consider this a qualification that I don’t mean to hurt your feelings.
I think that is where you and I are different Monica. Way different. I have a feeling you’d ask sticky ooc questions about everything. I also think, you couldn’t NOT use the truth if someone told it to you so that would mean, my belief in your ability not to keep it separate would mean you wouldn’t be granted the truth from me. So, if asked sticky ooc questions, I’d lie to you in a heart beat because I don’t trust your integrity to keep quiet if you did know the truth.
Which may also lead into my feeling about the city at large. Few have earned my trust enough for me to open up IC or OOC. And in situations like this, where you insist that everyone must tell you the ooc truth all the time, that requires the utmost trust – if you don’t have it in another person not to use the ‘truth’ you tell them about your spy character then you’re not going to tell them about it. It’s not going to be shared for very real, lack of trust in the person’s game integrity to keep quiet about what they know.
Much easier to lie. Cleaner even.
I’ll just put it out there. I’ve lied. I can’t remember the last ooc lie I told, I don’t keep track of them, but I’m not afraid to lie. Rarely do it, but that doesn’t mean I won’t. Just that I ordinarily don’t or it hasn’t been necessary.
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